Ianto Jones.

[originality]

i've just finished watching day 4 of children of earth, and i cried like a baby.
i want ianto to come back! he was my favourite character+torchwood isn't the same without him.
lots of people want him back, and it has become public, like there are a few news reports on it and stuff.
do you think they will bring Ianto back?

[Tasha93]

I hope they bring Ianto back, it don't feel like Torchwood much now 3 of the main characters are gone. Ianto came so far through the series from being the coffee boy to going out on missions with Captain Jack. Hope they bring Ianto back in the fourth series.

[originality]

yeah, mee too.

[queen-v]

I'm new to all this so I hope I don't make too many people mad by saying this...

I don't want Ianto to come back as a regular character. The death scene in CoE Day 4 was one of the most moving things I have EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE. For him to come back after that would be... well, it just doesn't seem right.

I would, however, really love to see flashbacks to Jack and Ianto's relationship in Season 4. I just heard the radio play "Dead Souls" and I'd love to actually see a version of Ianto's bedside speech.

[originality]

thats a good point, but i still want him to come back :']

[PterodactylJo]

I really want him to come back too. A lot of people have very good reasons why they think he shouldn't come back, but I just don't agree. Day Five was devastating without him, and it didn't feel the same. I really think Ianto coming back would work if the writers did it in the right way. And I don't want a parallel Ianto, or a clone or anything. I want the original back! :cryin:

[EyeCandy]

I'm new to all this so I hope I don't make too many people mad by saying this...

I don't want Ianto to come back as a regular character. The death scene in CoE Day 4 was one of the most moving things I have EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE. For him to come back after that would be... well, it just doesn't seem right.

I would, however, really love to see flashbacks to Jack and Ianto's relationship in Season 4. I just heard the radio play "Dead Souls" and I'd love to actually see a version of Ianto's bedside speech.

Agreed with you queen-v. I think this could be much more lovely, watching Ianto's life from Jack's mind :happy:

[duskymaiden]

i have just started watching children of earth day 4 on watch. its not gonna be pleasant :cryin:

[Tasha93]

Nah it aint. It was crying buckets on Day 4 and Day 5 :cryin: :sad:

[originality]

I really want him to come back too. A lot of people have very good reasons why they think he shouldn't come back, but I just don't agree. Day Five was devastating without him, and it didn't feel the same. I really think Ianto coming back would work if the writers did it in the right way. And I don't want a parallel Ianto, or a clone or anything. I want the original back! :cryin:

^ i agree with you there i must say. if day 5 was devastating, imagine what series 4 would be like without him.
and yes, i want the real ianto back, not a ghost or anything.


i have just started watching children of earth day 4 on watch. its not gonna be pleasant :cryin:

na, i cried loads!


Nah it aint. It was crying buckets on Day 4 and Day 5 :cryin: :sad:

samee!

[chironsgirl]

Dear new people; hugs,kisses thrown your way, welcome to the madness which is the forum. We are global, and we are all in this together. My first real experience with TW was CoE. So you can imagine, day 4 and 5 completely gutted me. When our local scifi channel, Space, replayed it on New Year's the only way I could get through it was with the help of two bottles of lovely Australian white wine.
I am sadly very doubtful that they can bring Ianto back. The first piece of real fanfic I ever wrote, Gold Eyes, deals with how I would deal with the whole CoE business. Many other writers here and on livejournal have written their own treatments on the subject. I have read copious amounts of fanfic, some good, some indifferent. But GDL has accepted that Ianto is gone, JB has accepted that Ianto is gone.....
Please dont let this turn you away from the forum. We need you! And I cant wait to see how that rat (OOPS! Did I print that?) RTD gets Torchwood running again.
See you in the forum! XOXOXO

[tigercheetah]

I want Ianto back :cryin: but I doubt RTD will re-visit the past in series 4, he'll want Jack and Gwen to move on and go in new directions. I caught a bit of Day Five on Watch the other night and the episode really feels like the end of an era without Ianto, Owen and Tosh.

Overall though, I got the strange feeling that Frobisher was the main focus of COE. Much of the story could have been told without the Torchwood team being involved, right down to a child being sacrificed.

[Ianto-Jones]

I really want Ianto back too, but I don't think he's coming back at all. :cryin:

[chironsgirl]

I want Ianto back :cryin: but I doubt RTD will re-visit the past in series 4, he'll want Jack and Gwen to move on and go in new directions. I caught a bit of Day Five on Watch the other night and the episode really feels like the end of an era without Ianto, Owen and Tosh.

Overall though, I got the strange feeling that Frobisher was the main focus of COE. Much of the story could have been told without the Torchwood team being involved, right down to a child being sacrificed.
Now THAT is perceptive!
XOXOXO

[Deve2k]

I suppose they could stick back together the tiny pieces of the Risen Mitten and break out the life knife and have a stab (terrible pun intended :grin: ) at bringing Ianto back. It would be a bit much though...

I think, if they really had to kill off Mr. Jones, they should have done it in a better way. I mean, I accept that the scene where he dies is very emotional and moving and so on, but it's Ianto Jones - he needs to go out in a hail of bullets and with several explosions whilst taking out the baddie and saving the world single handedly! There is no way I would have killed him off with some trumped up version of the sniffles and made him suffer slowly and painfully while Jack cried over him! That's an outrage and a disgrace to the character *grumbles*

[/rant]

If you haven't realised yet, I'm a Ianto fan hehe...

I don't see them going to all that trouble killing him off just to bring him back in the next series...That is, if they ever commission another one!

[PterodactylJo]

I suppose they could stick back together the tiny pieces of the Risen Mitten and break out the life knife and have a stab (terrible pun intended :grin: ) at bringing Ianto back. It would be a bit much though...

I think, if they really had to kill off Mr. Jones, they should have done it in a better way. I mean, I accept that the scene where he dies is very emotional and moving and so on, but it's Ianto Jones - he needs to go out in a hail of bullets and with several explosions whilst taking out the baddie and saving the world single handedly! There is no way I would have killed him off with some trumped up version of the sniffles and made him suffer slowly and painfully while Jack cried over him! That's an outrage and a disgrace to the character *grumbles*

[/rant]

If you haven't realised yet, I'm a Ianto fan hehe...

I don't see them going to all that trouble killing him off just to bring him back in the next series...That is, if they ever commission another one!
Agree with you there! Mainly on the "hail of bullets and with several explosions" point. It was quite a rubbishy death scene if you think about it, because he didn't actually accomplish anything! And I agree that they almost certainly won't go to the trouble of bringing him back. :sad: Oh well!

[Deve2k]

I suppose they could stick back together the tiny pieces of the Risen Mitten and break out the life knife and have a stab (terrible pun intended :grin: ) at bringing Ianto back. It would be a bit much though...

I think, if they really had to kill off Mr. Jones, they should have done it in a better way. I mean, I accept that the scene where he dies is very emotional and moving and so on, but it's Ianto Jones - he needs to go out in a hail of bullets and with several explosions whilst taking out the baddie and saving the world single handedly! There is no way I would have killed him off with some trumped up version of the sniffles and made him suffer slowly and painfully while Jack cried over him! That's an outrage and a disgrace to the character *grumbles*

[/rant]

If you haven't realised yet, I'm a Ianto fan hehe...

I don't see them going to all that trouble killing him off just to bring him back in the next series...That is, if they ever commission another one!
Agree with you there! Mainly on the "hail of bullets and with several explosions" point. It was quite a rubbishy death scene if you think about it, because he didn't actually accomplish anything! And I agree that they almost certainly won't go to the trouble of bringing him back. :sad: Oh well!

Maybe if we wish hard enough...?

[PterodactylJo]

Maybe if we wish hard enough...?
Indeed, there's always a possibility! :grin:

[AwesomeUsername]

I soooo want him back, even flashbacks would be great. I just want to see him again! :cryin: I think it would be nice if we get flashbacks if Jack was mabye talking to Gwen so we could hear his feelings and Gwen's opinion on what Jack was saying!

[Ianto-Jones]

I suppose they could stick back together the tiny pieces of the Risen Mitten and break out the life knife and have a stab (terrible pun intended :grin: ) at bringing Ianto back. It would be a bit much though...

I think, if they really had to kill off Mr. Jones, they should have done it in a better way. I mean, I accept that the scene where he dies is very emotional and moving and so on, but it's Ianto Jones - he needs to go out in a hail of bullets and with several explosions whilst taking out the baddie and saving the world single handedly! There is no way I would have killed him off with some trumped up version of the sniffles and made him suffer slowly and painfully while Jack cried over him! That's an outrage and a disgrace to the character *grumbles*

[/rant]

If you haven't realised yet, I'm a Ianto fan hehe...

I don't see them going to all that trouble killing him off just to bring him back in the next series...That is, if they ever commission another one!

I agree! I mean - Death by alien fart. Surely they can do better than that! :p

[dkb8472]

Sooo... I knows its been ages since I've been on this forum and I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this:

Look what I found yesterday!!

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs426.ash1/23597_326730871746_683281746_3989139_5242637_n.jpg

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs366.snc3/23597_326721386746_683281746_3989114_1335583_n.jpg

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs366.snc3/23597_326721421746_683281746_3989115_2180319_n.jpg

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs366.snc3/23597_326721451746_683281746_3989116_6312993_n.jpg

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs366.snc3/23597_326721481746_683281746_3989117_868204_n.jpg

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs386.snc3/23597_326721506746_683281746_3989118_1600860_n.jpg

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs366.snc3/23597_326730816746_683281746_3989138_805257_n.jpg

[Tasha93]

i saw this when i went to cardiff. :good: :grin:
Such a shame that Ianto was killed off. He should have at least stayed for anouther series :cryin:

[Ianto-Jones]

Ah they're brilliant! :grin: I've always wanted to see what's on that shrine!

[Chelle]

Wow, there are tons more stuff on there now compared to when we went in the middle of January.

xxx

[originality]

Thanks for posting that, DBK. It was very interesting. :-)
And Deve, I agree with you that Ianto should have had a better death scene, it was... pitiful.

[dkb8472]

I've been out in that part of the bay on so many nights out and I can't believe I missed it till now!!

[LadyCaffeine]

No, I don't think they'll bring Ianto back. RTD wanted him gone, so he killed him. And since he already got Jack a new boyfriend (Alonzo, was it?) and GDL has moved on and left the suits and stopwatch behind, I doubt there's any hope of Ianto coming back. Let's just hope that GDL will get lots of work and money in the future.

[Deve2k]

And since he already got Jack a new boyfriend (Alonzo, was it?)

Alonso is brilliant hehe. If they won't bring Ianto back, they'd better give Russell Tovey a job on Torchwood! That would be so cool... :big_grin:


Let's just hope that GDL will get lots of work and money in the future.

*crosses fingers* Spin off! :tongue:

[SiBeRia_nl]

i just want Ianto back... They can easily find a way to bring him back..
Maybe, Jack's last kiss is the key of bring Ianto back.

[Sqyd]

I wish they didn't bring RTD back. Let him play footsie with Fox in the US. Meanwhile have another writer take charge of the UK Torchwood. Make Moffat be the executive producer, and have that James Moran guy be the head writer. He writes good action.

[tiffers7]

I love Ianto - he was charming, funny - had the best lines! I was so messed up after Day 4 - I had watched TW from Season 1 and it was a heartbreaker. I was even crying on my lunch break at work the next day - a tv show has never affected me like this before. He was my favourite character. I wish badly that he will come back - but RTD is quite adamant he isn't so I am not holding my breath. There is always a possibility, however unlikely that may be. One lives in hope! :-)

[Sam Tyler]

One thing they could do is if the show comes back and reverts back to a stand alone oriented nature, they could always do an episode that gives Jack the chance to say a proper goodbye to Ianto, you know like a ghost, or even time travel, it would be a way to bring by Gareth for at least one episode and not cheapen the impact his on screen death had on the show.

[gravitule]

I still don't understand why and how bringing back Ianto would cheapen the on screen death. I read this a lot but it doesn't make sense for me.

[Cheri]

I still don't understand why and how bringing back Ianto would cheapen the on screen death. I read this a lot but it doesn't make sense for me.


If they can bring Owen back, they can bring Ianto back.

[nightowl]

I still don't understand why and how bringing back Ianto would cheapen the on screen death. I read this a lot but it doesn't make sense for me.

Maybe because it has been done before. Suzie was brought back, then Owen. There comes a point where you just can't do it believably. And look at all the trouble Jack caused when he brought Owen back.

Ianto would never have wanted that.

I think what people mean when they said it would be cheap to bring him back is that it's playing with people's feelings. You emotionally wring the viewer with Day 4, only to say at some point "nope, it's not permanent, here's (insert miracle cure here) a resurrection to save him. Then you don't have the motivation for Jack to go on and do what he had to with his grandson. He was, by that point, a broken man. After what Ianto said to him before about the other children, how would he have reacted to Jack contemplating the death of his own flesh and blood?

Now the only way I could see of a way to avoid it being cheap would have been possibly having the Doctor doing something in the last episode of his series - a deux ex machina which wouldn't have sat well with people, and would have been an echo of the year that never was - with Jack remembering what happened, but having Ianto back as if none of season 3 had happened.

People would have complained about that happening, or been asking why the Doctor didn't go back further and saved Tosh and Owen. In the end, they can't win.

RTD also said he wanted to get Jack to a place emotionally where he would run. He couldn't do that if Ianto was alive. So if we ever see S4, maybe we'll see where Davies wanted to take Jack on his journey and see if it was worth it in the long run.

[SerenityChaos]

Bringing back Ianto wouldn't make the characters or the writers able to move forward with character development which what happens in real life. People change when they go through certain situations in their lives wether it be minor or traumatic. Ianto's character changed since season 1 to season 3 with everything that's happened and you can thank the writers and RTD for that because they made Ianto and also, Tosh and Owen as believable as possible for us to actually mourn them. Don't get me wrong, I miss Ianto and the rest of TW3 team but after everything that's happened in the show, I'm sooo excited to where season 4 will take Jack(and Gwen if she's coming back, baby and all)next, character-wise. :wink:

[Cheri]

I understand what everyone is saying.


Maybe Ianto could come back in a dream, or... somehow be brought back for long enough for Jack and Gwen to say goodbye.
My biggest problem was that with Susie and with Owen, everyone got to say goodbye (sort of).
Gwen wasn't even there when Ianto died.
So maybe not like, bring him back to life. But somehow bring an image of him. Like, his spirit in a dream or some kind of device...if i'm making sense. Just as part of one episode.

[tigercheetah]

I still find Spock's death in The Wrath of Khan emotional, despite knowing what's going to happen in the following film. At the moment of Spock's death, I'm feeling the pain of Captain Kirk, who doesn't know at that point that Spock will be coming back. Bringing a character back from the dead doesn't always cheapen their death and as long as its done right, for many viewers tears of sadness will turn into tears of joy.

I think it would be romantic and ghostly if, a thousand years into Jack's future, he suddenly sees a Ianto-like figure creeping in the distance. They'd never be any explanation as to who this person was or where he came from - is he our Ianto or not? - which would allow viewers to put their own interpretation on the scene. If viewers like the idea of a fix-it, they can think of it as a fix-it. If they don't like the idea of a fix-it, they could just see it as Jack's mind bringing up old memories at random.

:yes:

Let's face it, much of the time the writers wanted viewers to have their interpretation of Jack/Ianto anyway.

[nightowl]

Maybe Ianto could come back in a dream, or... somehow be brought back for long enough for Jack and Gwen to say goodbye.
My biggest problem was that with Susie and with Owen, everyone got to say goodbye (sort of).
Gwen wasn't even there when Ianto died.


I think flashbacks or Jack's dreams would be a great way to let him mourn and heal from what happened.

I think it was also the point that they were trying to make that people don't always get to have that last heartfelt goodbye with the one they love on their deathbed. Sometimes you end up leaving people with a lot of regrets for what wasn't said. And as SC pointed out, it is what shapes them in the future series because of these events from the past.

[Cheri]

I know that but out of every character in Torchwood that could die, Ianto is the ONE character I would rather got to say goodbye properly.

But I can't have everything I want I guess. haha x

[SerenityChaos]

I know that but out of every character in Torchwood that could die, Ianto is the ONE character I would rather got to say goodbye properly.

But I can't have everything I want I guess. haha x

Not unless you are RTD or a writer in the show. :tongue:

[Cheri]

... I can make that happen... :na:

[gravitule]

I understand what you say but as I think that a character death used to develop another character is anyway a cheap plot device, I have no issue with a resurrection, even if it is a cheap one. It brings back Ianto and a happy Jack.
This is a win/win situation compared to a lose/maybe something situation.
Maybe that's why it never makes sense to me.
I also don't think I watched torchwood for his realism but because it is SciFI and because of the characters. That's why I always have some difficulties each time I read that it was to be more realistic.

[SerenityChaos]

I also don't think I watched torchwood for his realism but because it is SciFI and because of the characters. That's why I always have some difficulties each time I read that it was to be more realistic.

Its the characters in the show that are realistic. These people with certain problems, issues, relationships, love-life, views on life, etc just like everyone else that are thrown into this SciFi world and you watch them how they deal with it. You can sort of put yourself into their shoes and ask yourself what would you do in that situation.

JB once said in I think it was the San Diego Comic Con that the scifi is used as metaphor for real life.

[Kittycountess]

I have this crazy feeling that RTD secretly plans to bring Ianto back once the next Torchwood goes into production. I know he has denied it many times but think about it: if you were him, wouldn't you keep it a secret and shock everyone with a bombshell? Imagine the explosion in the Torchwood, Doctor Who and even Sci Fil communities once that episode airs. I wouldn't trade that level of publicity with anything.

As for how Ianto can come back since Torchwood is SciFi there will be around a million and fifty ways for that to happen. The only way it would cheapen his death would be if he suddenly showed up and started making coffee while someone explained to us and the rest of the cast that a time shift/black hole/paranormal spike/...insert your favorite SciFi lingo, happened and he came back. No if he were to come back it would have to be in a grand way and something that is very integral to the plot. My favorite idea is that an alien race somehow got hold of his body and cloned him. So now we have a clone Ianto who is in all ways like the real one but doesn't remember anything of his past and on top of that is evil. :grin: Of course not disgusting evil, or mastermind evil. He just plays for the wrong side for a while to create tension then slowly gravitate toward the good guys and into Jack's arms. :clapper: :good:

[tigercheetah]

Ianto was still the least used character in the show, never getting to be at the forefront of an episode after Cyberwoman. I think this makes Ianto's death especially hard to deal with for many fans, he was wasted much of the time.


Not unless you are RTD or a writer in the show.

I think the current generation of professional film and tv writers will be the last generation to have complete control over their work and their characters. Regarding the internet, it wouldn't surprise me if fans were eventually able to create their own Torchwood or Doctor Who episodes using virtual reality and bring back long-dead characters. Computer game graphics are already getting frighteningly realistic and its only a matter of time before what's currently only availiable to professionals becomes availiable to the general public. They could try to use the law of 'copyright' to stop people but the music industry is already struggling with this issue and not entirely winning.

Even now, long-gone writers such as Arthur Conan-Doyle have no control over their creation, to the extent that dinosaurs can be used in Sherlock Holmes. :smile:

[gravitule]

I vote for Kittycountess way of bringing him back!

And I also vote for tigercheetah: I tried to won the lotery and buy the Torchwood rights but finally will maybe use this money (if I win) to accelerate the virtual reality tools! It will be safer.

I have anyway to find a way if I want to watch Torchwood again. For the time being I am blocked in day4 of the thing, dying with Ianto.

For sure we need realistic characters but if they die with no other reason than to serve as a plot device it's not realistic anymore. And if you unfortunately identified to the character or to his lover it's just a final end....

[Kittycountess]

Even now, long-gone writers such as Arthur Conan-Doyle have no control over their creation, to the extent that dinosaurs can be used in Sherlock Holmes. :smile:
Actually when a certain amount of time passes and no one renews the copywrite claim on a product (like Disney does religiously,) the product becomes public domain. I believe that's what's happened with Sherlock Holmes, The Three Musketeers and a host of other old stories. You can tell them whichever way you want, add dinosaurs, robots, even half naked naughty nurses to them and no one can complain because now you have as much right to the them as anyone else.

If the fans eventually get the power to create episodes of their own they will definitely get into trouble with the creators. It's not like fanfiction is entirely legal either. The copywrite holders just tolerate the blatant infringement for the sake of fan enjoyment and they can evoke that privilege anytime they want, just like authors Anne Rice and George R. R. Martin have done.

Of course if I ever created something that people loved that much- so much they would spent that amount of time and energy on it - I would die from glee, come back to life like Jack, and hug them forever.

[Ianto-Jones]

For those of you who don't get Torchwood magazine Gareth was interviewed in the latest one and he said that RTD text him saying "There's no chance whatsoever that Ianto will be coming back! No chance at all!" I already didn't think he'd be coming back but this has ruined all hope at all for me. :'(

[Kittycountess]

For those of you who don't get Torchwood magazine Gareth was interviewed in the latest one and he said that RTD text him saying "There's no chance whatsoever that Ianto will be coming back! No chance at all!" I already didn't think he'd be coming back but this has ruined all hope at all for me. :'(
I still maintain the theory that it's all a cover up for some big reveal in season 4 should it ever come to existence. Otherwise why repeat and insist on something so much? We got it Russel. You and your evil twin that you keep locked in your basement are the only people in the world who want Ianto to stay dead and we surely respect that.

[Ianto-Jones]

For those of you who don't get Torchwood magazine Gareth was interviewed in the latest one and he said that RTD text him saying "There's no chance whatsoever that Ianto will be coming back! No chance at all!" I already didn't think he'd be coming back but this has ruined all hope at all for me. :'(
I still maintain the theory that it's all a cover up for some big reveal in season 4 should it ever come to existence. Otherwise why repeat and insist on something so much? We got it Russel. You and your evil twin that you keep locked in your basement are the only people in the world who want Ianto to stay dead and we surely respect that.

I love that theory, and I hope that that is the case, we'll just have to see, ay?

[Kittycountess]

I'm also thinking it could be a half truth of sorts. Ianto may not be brought back as himself, but a lot have speculated about him returning as a ghost, a clone, an alien who looks and acts exactly like him, etc. It's Scifi after all. That way RTD can say he never lied yet can still cash in on Ianto's popularity (which he would be deft not to.)

[ApplesauceTrauma]

Well from what I've heard, I also doubt that he'll be brought back properly.
However, I really hope that there might be a few flashbacks or something.
I really loved his character and hopefully I'd like to visit the shrine one day...
:D

[Nikki-B]

Wouldn´t it be a dream to follow Jacks struggel, trying to get his bearings again and back to work and maybe even trying to find some solice in that Alonso-character and then one day when he least expect it, TAADAA!
There he is!

*sigh* One can only dream!

[ApplesauceTrauma]

Wouldn´t it be a dream to follow Jacks struggel, trying to get his bearings again and back to work and maybe even trying to find some solice in that Alonso-character and then one day when he least expect it, TAADAA!
There he is!

*sigh* One can only dream!

Speaking of Alonso I have a little quote from Gareth from the TW magazine which I'll put in those spoiler things just in case.

[spoiler:3sf9opfy]"If Alonso can help Jack smile again, Ianto would be very happy."[/spoiler:3sf9opfy]

[Kittycountess]

I'm so against this whole Alonso/Jack affair it's not even funny. Well, we had our discussion over on the other thread. I'm not going to open that can of intergalactic worms here again (unless you want me to :googly1: )

[SerenityChaos]

For those of you who don't get Torchwood magazine Gareth was interviewed in the latest one and he said that RTD text him saying "There's no chance whatsoever that Ianto will be coming back! No chance at all!" I already didn't think he'd be coming back but this has ruined all hope at all for me. :'(
I still maintain the theory that it's all a cover up for some big reveal in season 4 should it ever come to existence. Otherwise why repeat and insist on something so much? We got it Russel. You and your evil twin that you keep locked in your basement are the only people in the world who want Ianto to stay dead and we surely respect that.

Denial is a river in Egypt, honey. :tongue: J/K.

[PterodactylJo]

For those of you who don't get Torchwood magazine Gareth was interviewed in the latest one and he said that RTD text him saying "There's no chance whatsoever that Ianto will be coming back! No chance at all!" I already didn't think he'd be coming back but this has ruined all hope at all for me. :'(
I still maintain the theory that it's all a cover up for some big reveal in season 4 should it ever come to existence. Otherwise why repeat and insist on something so much? We got it Russel. You and your evil twin that you keep locked in your basement are the only people in the world who want Ianto to stay dead and we surely respect that.
I can't believe how much I hope you're right. :resent:

[tigercheetah]

Denial is a river in Egypt, honey. :tongue: J/K.

In a show where Suzie and Owen effectively became 'the walking dead' anything is possible. :yes: I very much doubt Ianto is coming back but only because RTD wants the show to go in a new direction, not because of any 'techinical' difficulties. After all, Jack time-travels all the time, even if he IS "a fixed point in time and space"

[Kittycountess]

Denial is a river in Egypt, honey. :tongue: J/K.
I never denied it. I'm just saying if I were RTD I wouldn't let the opportunity to make my show the chat topic of the SciFi world pass. Think about the blast it would create in the TW/DW fandom if Ianto Jones, in some form or shape, suddenly showed up in season 4. Ratings will rift spike, even if for a short time. And isn't that all TV people care about? Gossip, ratings, pulling their show out of the mixture pot and seeing it in the news spotlight?

[EyeCandy]

I'm also thinking it could be a half truth of sorts. Ianto may not be brought back as himself, but a lot have speculated about him returning as a ghost, a clone, an alien who looks and acts exactly like him, etc. It's Scifi after all. That way RTD can say he never lied yet can still cash in on Ianto's popularity (which he would be deft not to.)

I really hope that your theory is right. I recently watched the entire Lost series (I loved it!) and I was so sad when my favourite character (Charlie) dies in the third season, I cried (not much as I cried on Ianto's death), but I was so happy and pleased to see him a guest on the final seasons, so my thought now more than ever before is that it could be great to see Ianto in flashbacks, as a ghost or something like that.

And the point is... Make Ianto come back is not going to ruin the series, not at all, I don't think so.



Think about the blast it would create in the TW/DW fandom if Ianto Jones, in some form or shape, suddenly showed up in season 4. Ratings will rift spike, even if for a short time. And isn't that all TV people care about? Gossip, ratings, pulling their show out of the mixture pot and seeing it in the news spotlight

If Ianto Jones makes his apparition on the new series, be sure that the ratings and audiences are going to exploit!

[Izzard]

I don't want him to be anything but himself.
This is science fiction, after all. If they could bring Rhys back and it worked, they can bring Ianto back and make it work. They could say, for example, that when the Hub blew up it caused a time wave from the source of the Rift that slowly changed time & brings everything back to the time before the events of COE took place-kind of like when they threw the bomb into the Rift in KKBB and time went back to before John appeared.
In fact, that sounds pretty plausible, given that precedent, actually. And then Ianto would still be there, it wouldn't 'cheapen' anything-because it already happened before with the Rift-maybe it's the normal reaction to that kind of impact.
I'd accept that. But then I'd pretty much accept anything if they'd bring Ianto back.
Tell the writers to contact me, I've got the solution! :yes:

[Kittycountess]

I'd accept that. But then I'd pretty much accept anything if they'd bring Ianto back.
At this point I'd accept anything if they'd bring the show back. Seriously, I'm slowly losing hope. :resent:

[Izzard]

At this point I'd accept anything if they'd bring the show back. Seriously, I'm slowly losing hope. [/quote]

There is that, too.
But my thought is that they might be giving the new Doctor a chance to settle in, and then after he's established, Torchwood will return so that each show can stand alone, as it were-maybe midsummer, or the fall?
Having said that, what it will look like is a whole different thread topic. I've already said here that I don't plan to watch it without Ianto, so I can't say I'm losing hope-I've already lost it, which is why I'm not looking forward to it.

[Tedy_Bernard]

I don't want to waste my time to watching TW without Ianto. 'cos it's not TW. TW without Ianto- is not TW for me. srsly. It's a mess!

[Kittycountess]

Hm, imagine they created a storyline about Jack and another dude/damsel getting it on. Of course Jack's reluctant because he keeps having Ianto flashbacks. Then, just as it's starting to work, *wham,* Ianto comes back.

And he's EVIL.

I wished I was part of the writing team. :tongue:

[Nikki-B]

That would be a great twist.
"He´s back and he´s mad as hell!" :big_grin:

[vegakapera]

he's mad that jack's plan wasn't better.

I'd love it if Ianto came back as a villain, people mentioned that they wanted a gay villain so why not bring out the darker side of Ianto since they nagged about it in the first two seasons.

Wouldn't it work if he wanted to stop Jack because seemingly everyone near Jack dies?
Or something like that...

[Kittycountess]

Villain Ianto will be so much fun. Jack would have a bitch of a time being the hero because, oh how could he battle his luva? He would be a mess and the show would be awesome.

[Weis]

I'd love it if Ianto came back as a villain, people mentioned that they wanted a gay villain so why not bring out the darker side of Ianto since they nagged about it in the first two seasons.

In fact, that’s pretty good idea. Just imagine - someone who wants to get back at Jack for something investigates Jack’ history, finds out his weak points and what will cause the greatest damage, saves Ianto, brainwashes him into believing that Jack is a bad guy and he, Ianto, has to do something… global to save the world from evil Torchwood, and voila… And as we know Ianto can be VERY resourceful.

And if it will be somebody from inside – from UNIT or from other TW branches, or from TW-1 - the recourses, the knowledge, the possibilities… Somebody from Jack’s “future” past would be nice too. Maybe even Captain Hart, but in this case I think John can have very sincere and honorable intentions and honestly may want to bring Ianto back but something in the process can go horribly wrong and Ianto wakes up… brain-messed.

Or somebody evil can use Captain Hart and his affection for Jack as a tool for saving Ianto and compromise the process.

But! In the end (to avoid cheesiness) Ianto should struggle with real memories and new (or implanted) belief, not just recover from brainwashing like it never happened. There should be some work done to overcome implanted memories and get Ianto and Jack together again. Some adventure would be nice.

That way we’ll have: juicy villain behind-the-scenes – check, Ianto’s back – check, drama – check, adventures – check, happy boys in the end - check.

But now at least there are not only nanogenes but Pandorica as well – very useful tools for saving Ianto ;)

[angelkitty]

Villain Ianto will be so much fun. Jack would have a bitch of a time being the hero because, oh how could he battle his luva? He would be a mess and the show would be awesome.

That sounds FABULOUS! I can just imagine it! The grin, the eye rolls, everything with that extra hint of malice! *shivers deliciously* it would be awesome!

[Kaleidoscope]

Oooh Evil Ianto would be too gorgeous! Like when Angel became Angelus... *fans self* :swoon:

[Meef]

Even now, long-gone writers such as Arthur Conan-Doyle have no control over their creation, to the extent that dinosaurs can be used in Sherlock Holmes. :smile:
Actually when a certain amount of time passes and no one renews the copywrite claim on a product (like Disney does religiously,) the product becomes public domain. I believe that's what's happened with Sherlock Holmes, The Three Musketeers and a host of other old stories. You can tell them whichever way you want, add dinosaurs, robots, even half naked naughty nurses to them and no one can complain because now you have as much right to the them as anyone else.

If the fans eventually get the power to create episodes of their own they will definitely get into trouble with the creators. It's not like fanfiction is entirely legal either. The copywrite holders just tolerate the blatant infringement for the sake of fan enjoyment and they can evoke that privilege anytime they want, just like authors Anne Rice and George R. R. Martin have done.

Of course if I ever created something that people loved that much- so much they would spent that amount of time and energy on it - I would die from glee, come back to life like Jack, and hug them forever.


The problem is that once said copyright is not in use, Gareth, John and all of us will more then like be either to old or dead to even care what happens. I can't see Janto being sexy with two elderly guys and to get some one else to play them will be ridiculous. The fact of the matter is the chemistry is with the two actors, anyone else just wouldn't do to play them unlike characters such as Sherlock Holmes that has had many different people playing him each bring something to the role. I just don't see Janto working with another pair of actors because John and Gareth were the reason I even cared for the pair to begin with. Those two made it be bigger then what even RTD intended it to be. Also as long as there is some one in RTD's estate or the BBC around the copyright will more then likely be bought up and kept out of the reach of Public Domain. The BBC likes to keep their shows. And once that is over it will be up to future generations to take over and remake it if they want. And that doesn't mean a remake will be better then the original or that Ianto will live or even be a character. So if you want that copyright start saving now because it will be pricey. :smile:

[PterodactylJo]

OK, I was the one thinking "NOOO! Ianto must be exactly the same if he comes back! :scared011:"
But it would be so awesome if he were evil! Not completely psychotic serial killer evil, but dark and bitter and damaged. Yeah, that would work really well. And it's a good storyline, so it may encourage the BBC to bring him back.

[angelkitty]

Oooh Evil Ianto would be too gorgeous! Like when Angel became Angelus... *fans self* :swoon:

And you could see how much fun David Boreanez (terrible spelling, sorry) was having with that. No more moping and scenery chewing, just tons and tons of gleeful fun!

It was excellent (not as good as Mayor Wilkins, but great fun!)

[Hollyboppers]

I've been looking through this thread because I'm writing a fanfic (Ianto's Dilemma, check it out if you want.) and i needed some comments about Ianto's death.
I made myself watch *the scene* last night and I was nearly crying. I had to keep it in otherwise i would have woken the whole house! It was so beautiful, I loved Ianto!

[alfuso]

When I visited Cardiff, I took a few photos of the Ianto Wall on the Quay. is it still there?

[Undead Medic]

Yes it is, it is being maintained by Mermaid Quay staff. :smile:

[Eye_Candy]

Need to go and see it next time I pop over the bridge.

[Chelle]

Ah I was wondering about the 'shrine' a few days ago...glad it's being maintained!

xxx

[Hollyboppers]

It's my dream to go and see it. Might bring something to put on it, if I can! :grin:

[torchwoodbiggestfan1]

they did in the radio dramas on bbc radio four, three episodes avalible on bbc iplayer a bit sad at the end of it though

[jamesharper]

I would definitely add something to the shrine if I lived close enough.

[torchwoodbiggestfan1]

he should come back because he became one of the most loved
characters in the show

HE WAS THE BEST PERSON IN THE SHOW ( not including captain jack)

[alfuso]

I wasn't even trying to see it. I was just wandering about the millennium centre and came across it

[rvs009]

I saw Torchwood this way If you liked your heroes brash and loud you had Jack and Gwen( to some extent I see her as a female Jack) if you preferred a more subtle quiet hero you had Ianto and Tosh. If you liked them grumpy you had Owen. So as an audience you had a choice. They then took away two choices and left only one. Ianto was my hero. He was never meant to be a hero he became one through circumstance. He could have walked away after the fall of Torchwood 1 but he didn't. He could have tossed it in after Countrycide but he didn't His reluctance to walk away when he had a choice makes him my hero. I have never seen Jack as having this choice. When your immortal the world that you live in matters because you will be there an awfully long time so keeping the peace becomes your priority ( unless of course you feel like being the bad guy for a few thousand years. That could be fun). You might say that Jack has choice by leaving Earth but again events that happen on Earth seem to affect the whole universe so again I see no choice. Ianto has appeared in the SFX hero list again this year he is number 6 (last year he was 5)So that tells me a lot of people like their heroes quiet and subtle and I miss him

[Azza3100]

I don't want Ianto to come back as a regular character. The death scene in CoE Day 4 was one of the most moving things I have EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE. For him to come back after that would be... well, it just doesn't seem right.
.

Yeah I agree. I think his death was extremely poignant especially as he begged Jack never to forget him. I think if they bought him back it would make the whole death scene and message in it redundant.

[Michael]

Here's a link to House of the Dead, the latest radio episode.

I was pleasantly surprised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu_NJGOMmGg

[KJones]

I still havn't watched Miracle day, because I'm not sure I'm really interested anymore without Ianto and Owen. The Jack/Gwen dynamic kind of bores me. People have told me its really good, but I have a feeling ill be disapointed.

[TheFaceofBoe0800]

i miss ianto alot he wuz a fantastic character and Gareth did an exalent job acting! ianto wuz awesome and u didnt want to piss him off and he really luved Jack

[Matthew Hernandez]

We need a flashback episode!!! Bring Gareth back.

[Lepidottero]

Ianto was my favorite character from episode one but I wouldn't change a thing about COE. His death was so well-written, so emotional, and so sudden. it just made so much sense too- from the beginning of the season Ianto was very much acting as Jack's right hand man. Formerly that was Gwen but in addition to her becoming officially tied to reach with Something Borrowed in season 2, Ianto and Jack are clearly growing closer together.

I've heard people say 'they could have killed Gwen, they could have killed Rhys' but think about it... if it were Gwen, who's relationship do you think would have been focused on during the show? Ianto would still be around, but his existence and relationship with Jack would not be the way we know it. I can't say I would hate that but the majority of major developments for Jack and Ianto were in Children of Earth. I was attached to the idea of Janto since "Careful, that's harassment Sir." but COE was when things really came together- we really got to see their feelings, especially on Ianto's side.

If Gwen were going to be killed, drama would have called for much more focus on her character, and there would have been no room for that development to the extent that it came.

I don't like the idea of writers pulling stunts just to get reactions. I don't like the idea of killing Ianto just because they don't want Jack to be in an actual relationship with anyone or because they think he's supposed to suffer. That isn't story telling, that's god-modding. But that, to me, wasn't what Ianto's death was... it simply made sense. We've known from the beginning that dying young in Torchwood is a common thing, we knew that in COE Ianto was the one that Jack brought with him, his main 'partner' persay from their first scene together. It made /sense/ that Jack would challenge 456, it made /sense/ that he would be reckless about it because he had no other choice, and most of all it made /sense/ that he would bring Ianto Jones along with him as opposed to any of the others. Probably without even thinking about it.

The saddest thing about Ianto's death to me is that he didn't die for a win like Tosh or Owen. He died in the background of a major loss for our main characters, and that more than anything broke my heart. He didn't sacrifice himself to save anything, his actions didn't directly lead to victory... he simply lost his life trying. He disappeared, and then the show had to go on, Jack, Gwen, and Rhys still had to save the world without him. That was what really broke my heart about Ianto's death... he died a hero, but not in the way one would expect from a television drama.

I think in the end what Ianto fans have to hold onto is that Ianto Jones was a beautiful and special person that will always be in our hearts, but he was fictional. Fiction never dies. Canon death? Who gives a shit? Ianto's still alive in my mind as much as Owen and Tosh are. Of course, canon is what's most important, so it doesn't take away the drama of the story, because the story /does/ matter more than anything, but it doesn't mean Ianto has to be gone forever.

Like I said, I wouldn't change anything. And I don't want to bring Ianto back... a flashback would be all right, but what's important to me is this:

"Don't forget me."
Never could.
"A thousand years time... you won't remember me..."
Yes I will. I promise. I will.

In Miracle Day Ianto is mentioned twice. What's important to me is that this continues... that Jack lives up to his promise, that 4 seasons from now, if Torchwood manages to make it that far, Ianto's name is still brought up, and Jack still thinks about him. Ianto will live on in our hearts and our fanworks... in canon, he should live on in Jack and Gwen's.

[Kefirah]

Ianto was brilliant and so wonderfully played. But having him back would cheapen everything. Torchwood has always seemed, to me, to be about the value of a life lived, whether you're immortal or not. Ianto lived, he affected Jack in ways he didn't think possible and he died doing what he wanted and where he wanted (at Jack's side).

There's nothing wrong with writing such drama and pain and I love a writer who will go for those hard moments and not back down. That's what I watch TV for, to feel something - whether it's laughter or tears. Art is supposed to move you, affect you, scare you, thrill you.


The saddest thing about Ianto's death to me is that he didn't die for a win like Tosh or Owen. He died in the background of a major loss for our main characters, and that more than anything broke my heart. He didn't sacrifice himself to save anything, his actions didn't directly lead to victory... he simply lost his life trying. He disappeared, and then the show had to go on, Jack, Gwen, and Rhys still had to save the world without him. That was what really broke my heart about Ianto's death... he died a hero, but not in the way one would expect from a television drama.

Wow, yes, exactly! I wouldn't say it was a pointless death, but it was so...petty and needless. BUT I don't fault the writers for writing it that way. Being cocky sometimes gets you killed.

I miss Ianto, but I don't want or need him back.

[Meef]

And Ianto also got to die in the arms of the man he loved. He had a finally moment and he told Jack how he really felt. It was a beautiful death and I thought one of the best a character could have. In Miracle Day I felt that Jack still held Ianto close, he wasn't forgotten and with Jack he never would be.

[gravitule]

Nothing romantic about the death of Ianto, just the need to prepare the move to the US...

"Windy City Times: A fan wanted me to ask if Ianto [a male co-worker and lover of Barrowman's character] would be returning to the show.
John Barrowman: Ianto is mentioned but he won't be coming back into the series. Ianto was Jack's last love interest. They had a really good relationship. He died in the last series.
Windy City Times: Many people still come back from the dead in this series.
John Barrowman: That is true, but I think we have moved on. Russell T. Davies explains it better, he says we couldn't have transplanted the show in the States and brought the entire company with it. People had to die!"

...which generated "Miracle Day". It's what I call a bad deal, a loose/loose one....

But that's just my opinion.

[Meef]

RTD didn't even think about bringing Torchwood over here until after COE was aired. Also we all know Ianto was on the chopping block from the first series. :smile:

Here is the whole article where John says some positive things about Miracle Day as well. http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/lgbt/Out-actor-John-Barrowman-Back-in-the-Torchwood-saddle/32898.html

[angelkitty]

Gravitule - CoE and all that comes after it is AU. That's my canon, and I ship it like a boss!

[Raura]

The saddest thing about Ianto's death to me is that he didn't die for a win like Tosh or Owen. He died in the background of a major loss for our main characters, and that more than anything broke my heart. He didn't sacrifice himself to save anything, his actions didn't directly lead to victory... he simply lost his life trying. He disappeared, and then the show had to go on, Jack, Gwen, and Rhys still had to save the world without him. That was what really broke my heart about Ianto's death... he died a hero, but not in the way one would expect from a television drama.


Totally agree! I was disappointed he didn't even get into the tank and attack the 456! I don't mind Ianto dying of fighting aliens and which making Jack suffer for what he did before (he was really an ass in CoE when coping his relationship with Ianto) if they made Ianto's death more special than other minor characters in the building did nothing but ran for their lives.

Apart from that, the death scene itself was well-written, IMO, bringing thousand times more tears than the way they had written off Owen and Tosh. I'd known the spoilers and read the comic strip by Gareth before watching CoE. After finished CoE, I could understand why both John and Gareth said in the interviews they can accept that. And I cried mostly for poor Ianto sacrificing himself for Jack like this. Like the woman said in Gareth's story, Jack may remember him for more of a thousand days. Sorry, my fellow Jack fans, I really hate to see Jack not cherishing the people around him and get quite angry about that.

It was perfect for Torchwood to end the whole series and should never have made another season after that!

Killing off main characters for bringing Torchwood to the US sounds legit. But I believe Gareth would be willing to go to the US like Eve and Kai since he was looking for jobs in LA after Ianto was written off. I think RTD just did that for purely dramatic climax [-(

[angelkitty]

RTD did it cos he was hoping to do a Joss Whedon. However whereas the death of Tara created Dark!Willow as she sought revenge for her lover's death, the death of Ianto didn't make Jack do anything. Steven (aka the red coated plot element) would have died whether Ianto had lived or not.

[Raura]

The only thing Jack did was flee. :roll: Altho he killed the 456 as planned....

Not sure if any thread about this, but I like the scene he confessed to his sister. I know how he felt because it is close to my personal experience. I'd been wondering why those straight characters in Torchwood fell for same sex so easily without any struggling until I watched this scene, which reminded me of some feelings I forgot for years--It's not the gender, it's just the person. I didn't struggle just like the Torchwoodies lol I read some crap from a gay site criticizing Ianto was homophobic and afraid to admit he was gay. (Rubbish!) To me, Ianto's confession is quite real and heartfelt!

[angelkitty]

I'm glad that it helped you. Personally, I have several issues with it. The 'It's him and only him' line rings hollow when you place it against canon!Ianto. But then I wonder if he was introducing his sister to his bisexuality in a way that she would be able to understand. It leaves me horribly conflicted.

Also with regards to that other site - there are no gay characters in TW, with the exception of Gwen, none of the main characters are monosexual.

[Raura]

I understand why you are offended (if it's the correct word) by what he said, but I think there's no need to care so much. People have various opinions on their sexual orientation and everyone is under different circumstances.

Many people may not sense their bisexual side, especially for a person with his heterosexuality almost his whole life and had never fell for a man before. It's very clear to me that Jack was his first same-sex love interest and even if he flirted with Jack before it was merely for pleasing his boss and covering the fact that he hid his cyber girlfriend. I guess Ianto might do some self tests to see his sexuality. What he said seemed to be more of an explanation to himself because no matter what he said to his sister, she would just think he turned gay! :razz:

[angelkitty]

Not offended, more 'Whut?' over what he said, especially as Ianto basically came out to his mum at 14. It was more than a little OOC, but then the whole of CoE was OOC! I doubt very much whether Jack was Ianto's first same-sex partner, his behaviour over the two series is not that of a man coming to terms with a whole new facet of his sexuality. It's fairly obvious to me that Ianto enjoyed flirting (and more) with Jack, and that was completely separate to his relationship with Lisa.

Part of me would like to think that the scene was Rhi asking Ianto if he'd gone back to boys, with Ianto reassuring her that no, it was never going to be one or the other. I find it very difficult to believe that Rhi wouldn't have known that Ianto was bi, but people tend to find it easier to define bisexual people by the gender of the person they are dating.

One final point, it is absolutely imperative to me to care 'this much'. There is precious little bisexual representation in the media, and Torchwood was massively important. The amount of young people that I have met at conventions who have told me how important seeing bi characters (Ianto, Tosh) on the tv was to them is staggering. These are people who thought they were totally alone, the only ones until they saw someone on tv who felt the same way they do.

Bisexuals are rendered invisible on a regualr basis. You just have to look at all the phrasing around same-sex marriage. The amount of times it is referred to as gay marriage is infuriating. Bisexuals suffer higher rates of mental illness, bullying, workplace discrimination etc than gay or straight people. So yeah, I believe that it is hugely important to care that much.

[Raura]

Not offended, more 'Whut?' over what he said, especially as Ianto basically came out to his mum at 14. It was more than a little OOC, but then the whole of CoE was OOC!


I believe it's from Torchwood novels or something like that? Are those DW or TW novels considered more of fanfic getting official releases, aren't they? If the novels haven't got adapted to radio dramas or chosen to read by the actors, I don't think they are counted as official setting, just like those comic strips in official mags written by actors themselves. I get the idea you don't like what happened in CoE but unfortunately it's still an official source. I personally think season 4 shouldn't exist, but I can't deny the fact that it exits and all I can do is refuse to watch or think about it.

Maybe I had the same experience as Ianto, except the dead girlfriend part, so I identify with his words so much. I don't think there's anything wrong with his behavior. I behaved like that when I found the new facet of my sexuality that even if I'd been a heterosexual for decades. I don't mean to cause you trouble to post another long reply but I really can't label myself as bi because I don't have those feelings anymore after the love affair ended.

Like I said, I can understand why you are offended, but it's also important for dramas to describe all kinds of feelings, not just for the educating reasons. Some interviews from Torchwood or those from RTD's past work, Queer As Folk, often indicate he doesn't handle issues no matter people like it or not.

[angelkitty]

RTD has stated that all of the TW books are considered canon.

I'm not offended by the scene, disappointed maybe, but not offended. I was more offended by the comment that I shouldn't care.

[Raura]

I feel very sorry I offend you and I really don't mean to do that.

[Meef]

I feel very sorry I offend you and I really don't mean to do that.


You shouldn't feel the need to apologize for expressing your opinion. :hugs: Everyone's free thoughts are welcomed here. :smile:

I have a theory to why Ianto came out to his mum in when he was fourteen, then his sister finds out about Jack in COE. I don't think the sister and the mother had a great relationship. Nor did seem like Ianto had a close tie with his family as well. It isn't to unusual for a parent to not discuss sexuality of one sibling with another especially if the family isn't close knit and the parent maybe embarrassed by the admittance. I have plenty of friends that went through that when they came out, the parent/parents didn't acknowledge it so it never came up during family gathering. Since Ianto had a girlfriend (Lisa) his sexual interests may never have been in questioned. . Very simple really. Look at it this way, in COE, his sister just found out from someone else that Ianto was romantically involved with a man. She also make it a appoint in saying that he never tells her anything.

[Meef]

This article sums up the sexuality in Torchwood. It is older but it is a great read. http://gabrielnovo.com/the-bisexuality-of-torchwood/

[Raura]

The article is interesting! But I never doubt Tosh was in a relationship with that female alien. She apparently didn't consider it casual sex. If Jack hadn't killed her girlfriend, the relationship would have developed more further like any hetero ones in there! I only wonder if Owen was bisexual. The reason he kissed a man was to remove the one who stopped him screwing the woman. Even Gwen acted more like a potential bi to me.

Back to Ianto Jones in CoE. The author also reviewed the relationship of Jack and Ianto http://gabrielnovo.com/relationships-and-torchwood-children-of-earth/ Very brutal but true! I often feel Jack has stronger emotional connection with Gwen than Ianto until Ianto's death. The way Jack treated Ianto in CoE makes me uncomfortable, and which reminds me another RTD classic, QAF. The male leads hate the word such as boyfriend, couple. Only change when their love ones gone. I can't say it isn't close to the real life but it also leads me to wonder if Russell has serious issues with stable same-sex relationships and obsesses with unrequited love. (I know he has a long-term partner but...)

[Kefirah]

Not offended, more 'Whut?' over what he said, especially as Ianto basically came out to his mum at 14. It was more than a little OOC, but then the whole of CoE was OOC! I doubt very much whether Jack was Ianto's first same-sex partner, his behaviour over the two series is not that of a man coming to terms with a whole new facet of his sexuality. It's fairly obvious to me that Ianto enjoyed flirting (and more) with Jack, and that was completely separate to his relationship with Lisa.


I would just like to weigh in with my observation that people often have very different behaviour with their love-interest than they do explaining it to their family members. I can see Ianto being very comfortable with Jack, around the members of Torchwood even, and being less overt to his sister.

It's established that they aren't close any more and in this scene she is quite obviously over-reacting to start with! If you're bisexual and your sister is telling everyone you're gay (including her hubby), obviously proving that even if she KNEW he was bisexual that perhaps maybe even she doesn't have a good understanding what it means, then my own reaction would probably be to tone it down a little.

This scene plays out pretty clearly seen in that light (which I am willing to bet might not be the RIGHT light). I wouldn't exactly say it's wrong or out of character.

[Meef]

There is often a fine line between what we feel is correct representation in TV vs what the reality is. I have found Torchwood in any season to often hit the correct behavior for the average person for social issues. I think if Ianto's sister didn't act the way she did it would give a false perception of what it is like for a bisexual person in everyday life. Often that lifestyle is misunderstood by everyday people. After all even a straight life style often is not portrayed with any real accuracy. That isn't true with Torchwood. The reactions feel real even if they are politically incorrect to some, it is how some do feel. It is a excellent way to educate the viewer with actual reactions so they can correct their way of looking at others lifestyles different from his/hers own through the characters interaction on such issues. Even Rex in Miracle Day, with his gay comments to Jack was very true to how people are. It isn't pretty and it isn't correct behavior but at least it is shown and not glossed over like it doesn't exist and we are all perfect to each other and tolerance runs like water during a heavy spring rain. It doesn't but if five people can understand that it isn't easy for someone to live an alternative life style to their own maybe understanding can be found. Torchwood has always done just that. It educates rather then insists.

I also thought that the sexuality of the Torchwood Team was unique to the outside in world tolerance.

[Kefirah]

Of course I again find myself waffling. Through a conversation I had with someone the other day, I realized (and I keep having to remind myself) that RTD did say specifically that Torchwood was in a universe where a lot of the sexual orientation of people was not supposed to be as judged as it is in modern day. This was apparent with the episode "Captain Jack Harkness" where Jack and Jack dancing and kissing wasn't viewed with OUR timeline's 1940s opinions on homosexuality.

So, Rhi shouldn't really be gushing as much as she did, perhaps. Or maybe she's just happy and excited that her baby brother is getting some...and with someone dishy....and she's dying to have him over for tea. Who knows!? lol

[Meef]

Of course I again find myself waffling. Through a conversation I had with someone the other day, I realized (and I keep having to remind myself) that RTD did say specifically that Torchwood was in a universe where a lot of the sexual orientation of people was not supposed to be as judged as it is in modern day. This was apparent with the episode "Captain Jack Harkness" where Jack and Jack dancing and kissing wasn't viewed with OUR timeline's 1940s opinions on homosexuality.

So, Rhi shouldn't really be gushing as much as she did, perhaps. Or maybe she's just happy and excited that her baby brother is getting some...and with someone dishy....and she's dying to have him over for tea. Who knows!? lol

If that were the case with Captain Jack Harkness and their Universe was more accepting, then why was the real Captain Jack afraid to hold Jack's hand? Besides we don't know what happen at the end of the dance, what kind of response his men had about it.

I would agree that Ianto's brother in law wasn't insulting him, that in a well adjusted universe accepting of one's sexuality , what one thinks is an insult in this world maybe used more in jest.

I also think that RTD may have meant Torchwood its self meaning the Institute not being bothered about its agents sexuality. We didn't see enough about the outside world to know if that was true. Rhys after all in Meat was very quick to judge Jack as Gay.

[Kefirah]

If that were the case with Captain Jack Harkness and their Universe was more accepting, then why was the real Captain Jack afraid to hold Jack's hand? Besides we don't know what happen at the end of the dance, what kind of response his men had about it.

I would agree that Ianto's brother in law wasn't insulting him, that in a well adjusted universe accepting of one's sexuality , what one thinks is an insult in this world maybe used more in jest.

I also think that RTD may have meant Torchwood its self meaning the Institute not being bothered about its agents sexuality. We didn't see enough about the outside world to know if that was true. Rhys after all in Meat was very quick to judge Jack as Gay.

I think 1941 Jack Harkness was afraid to hold Captain Jack's hand just because he wasn't sure if he liked him yet, that tentative, does-he-like-me shyness. Not I'll-get-my-head-bashed-in sense of fear.

I seriously don't see any judgmental comments coming from Rhys in "Meat". He gets in Jack's face arguing and Jack says "this is quite homoerotic" - if ANY straight man with judgmental issues heard that, said so close to his face, he would have punched the person saying it. He doesn't react. He says in the van something like "Sure you're not gay?" in a joking but hopeful way because he knows his fiancee is attracted to Jack and wants to hope that Jack is not in the slightest way interested in Gwen.

But you're right in that we didn't get to see a lot of outside "real 21st century" world views in RTD's Torchwood universe.

[Meef]

I think 1941 Jack Harkness was afraid to hold Captain Jack's hand just because he wasn't sure if he liked him yet, that tentative, does-he-like-me shyness. Not I'll-get-my-head-bashed-in sense of fear.

I seriously don't see any judgmental comments coming from Rhys in "Meat". He gets in Jack's face arguing and Jack says "this is quite homoerotic" - if ANY straight man with judgmental issues heard that, said so close to his face, he would have punched the person saying it. He doesn't react. He says in the van something like "Sure you're not gay?" in a joking but hopeful way because he knows his fiancee is attracted to Jack and wants to hope that Jack is not in the slightest way interested in Gwen.

But you're right in that we didn't get to see a lot of outside "real 21st century" world views in RTD's Torchwood universe.

I didn't mean Rhys was insulting just jumped to the conclusion that Jack was gay without knowing him. Which is a very natural reaction. Jack didn't jump in and explain his sexuality because that isn't Jack's way. But Jack in London in Empty Child was slapping men's asses. Why was he so shy with the real Captain Jack if this world was more open that is my point. Jack never appears shy before. And in Miracle Day he jumped on Angelo without finding out if he even liked men. Maybe it was more of a timeline thing. Jack didn't want to change anything for the future.

[whoknows]

It was perfect for Torchwood to end the whole series and should never have made another season after that!

perfect, couldn't have said it better myself:smile: and while i'm sure plenty will disagree to me that should have been the end of "Torchwood" not Jack, RTD could have continued on with Jack back amongst the stars again finding a new life. But there isn't any Torchwood anymore, why call it Torchwood

As for Ianto death, i gett why it was done, didn't like how it was done. did a big disservice to the character but that's why we got House Of The Dead the Radio Play, to fix up those COE things, well to me anyway

[Meef]

Of course I would have to disagree with you, whoknows. :smile: To me Torchwood is Jack, so as long as Jack is around there can be new teams and Torchwood can rebirth as much as it wants. I'm looking forward to John and Carole's book. This may mean a new of Torchwood without the need to disregard any of the series. It is important to remember that Torchwood also is the Universe in which the stories take place. Just like Star Trek has many off shoots, like Voyager, the title always begins with Star Trek. Another mind blowing idea is that Torchwood is just a AU functioning with in The Doctor Who Universe.

[whoknows]

i know Meef , it's shocking that we would disagree:laugh: but all of the Star Trek people, still work for Star Fleet, no matter what the show is called, but here there is no Torchwood Agency founded by Queen Victoria and funded by the Crown above the Police and Governments, there aren't even any Aliens in MD, so it's the Adventure of Gwack, not Torchwood, and i would have preferred the Adventures of Jack

[chironsgirl]

Well I must chime in, after months away. I'm a closet trekkie from way back. There was so much more fodder for a trekkie fan; the three original seasons, lots asnd lots and lots of novels ( I've read lots of them) the movies, TNG, DS9, Voyager, the sadly limited Enterprise series. As good as TW was there were only two true seasons. CoE was a mini series. And then RTD was done with TW AND DW. He walked away from both of those shows to work in the states. He had no intention of reviving TW. It was a dead parrot, it had ceased to be. If it wasn't nailed to it's perch it would have been pushing up the daisies.

Then of course Starz got an inkling somehow of how rabid the fandom was. And waved God knows how much money in front of RTD's nose. I have said before and will blather it again; there was some dam' fine writing being done in the various fandoms. I mean REALLY good stuff! If the Starz people had had any sense at all they should have approached this forum and politely asked who WE thought was continuing on in the real spirit of TW. Because MD underwhelmed me so completely I had to step back from this forum for several months. I'm back because CaterpillarGirl has given me a nudge. I believe RTD fully intended to completely squash any hope for a reawakening of TW after MD. But I have a hope that if Jack can come back and be a Companion again, for a season or so of DW, maybe........

[whoknows]

Nice to see meet you and see you back Chironsgirl. While i try not to pay much attention to what is said , publicity wise, i thought the whole point of MD was this is the crossover story from TW to TW America and that's why Rex is made immortal , you don't need Jack anymore, so RTD has his American show

COE was the end of TW for me, and while not liking in any way they killed off Ianto, i brought it for the story with the end with Jack leaving and starting a new life. And i know i'm going to push all of your buttons Meef :laugh: but Jack isn't TW, Jack got stuck with TW while waiting for the Doctor to fix him and chose to come back for his team and supposedly Ianto, but now they killed off Ianto and the rest of the team aside from Gwen what is the point of Jack being there. There isn't one, it doesn't make sense anymore, there's nothing left just a new immortal dude, it might as well be Highlander, Gwen will never die either, she doesn't need to be immortal on the show, we all know that nothing will ever happen to her. And any new team member will die as badly as Ianto, just look at Esther and the doctor on MD.

[Meef]

Nor was Torchwood Ianto, as some may think either. Jack was created for John Barrowman. That much we have been told. Adding Jack to Torchwood Three near its beginning as an Institute for the Queen makes Jack more Torchwood than anyone else. When Alex killed himself and took all of Torchwood Three with him, Jack took control making Torchwood Three essentially his.

I'm not going to argue about MD because people are prone to see whatever it is they wish to see about it because of their feelings about the direction of Torchwood in general.

RTD never said he had any intentions of reviving Torchwood. If it was the money that was so important he could have handed it over to another creator and he would have sat back as a producer gaining royalties. According to what John Barrowman said about Carole and his Torchwood Novel, they had to get permission from RTD to write it. That means he has control over its direction. And like Starz has pointed out on more than one occasion, they are waiting for RTD to comeback understanding that he returned home to be with his sick partner. I may add some fans were crass enough to say he ran back to England because MD was such a failure in their eyes. It wasn't a failure not by along shot.

Some fans are going to hate RTD forever and therefore will believe whatever they wish to believe. They want to acknowledge one part of the whole picture because it suits them best. There is nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't leave much room to change one's mind as I have done many times with over the years I have been a part of this fan base. But I never changed my mind about Jack, to me it will always be about Jack, since he was the character that lead to the program's creation, not Gwen and not Ianto. There is no deny that Torchwood would never had happen if it was for the creation of Jack or the existence of Torchwood in the Who Universe. The two factors led to the spin off. Sadly it wasn't about Gwen and it wasn't about Ianto.

After a recent re watch of MD, I found that Jack played a huge part in the program unlike what some think. And of course like any other show you have to have supporting characters around him that may at times do scenes and develop as Characters. Otherwise it would get boring with the focal point on one person. Miracle Day was a story and needed others to make that story happen. I also found that sitting through it in one sitting made for a very well done story. Those who have mixed feeling about that and COE are really missing out.

In a statement form Starz about a year ago "
In a statement made during the Television Critics Association press tour, Albrecht said, “Torchwood is not one of the shows we went into thinking about a yearly return. [Davies] has a lot of things on his plate. If Torchwood is at the top of his list, that will affect the future of Torchwood.”

RTD's partner was diagnosed with brain cancer later on. That is the only reason why RTD decided not to do more Torchwood for now. That doesn't mean that at some point it won't happen. John Barrowman said that his book Exodus Code was written so it could easily be made into a movie. Hallow Earth had been picked up as a TV series.

It is easy to just believe what one wants. But the future is wide open to anything. Maybe because I watch lots of shows where characters die constantly that character death doesn't affect me. They are just characters to me. But most of you already know that is how I feel and have judged me because of it. My total crime is that I believe Jack is Torchwood. And I'm guilty of see him as the only future for the show. He can still return even if it isn't John Barrowman, simply because as the future goes on there are more advances in plastic surgery, Jack face doesn't have to stay the same. You can't say that about any mortal characters. In ways Torchwood Three may be dead, but Torchwood as an Institute has just gotten started.

[Meef]

whoknows, not every episode of Torchwood was about aliens. And Miracle Day did have an alien like life form in The Blessing which was completely alien to life forms on Earth. We aren't even sure what the Three Families represent, since they have more of an invaders feel, V, Falling Skies, 456, than a human feel. So what exactly constitute an alien presents? Alien could mean anything that doesn't react the same or mesh with a set standards of a community. In Countrycide, the cannibals were very alien in feeling at first since it is unthinkable that a human would eat another human, yet we find that they are human. But there was no deny that there was a distinct alien feel, which was always a very important element in Torchwood. But there was an alien being in Miracle Day, but the human element had more of an alien feel.

[whoknows]

Meef where did i say TW is about Ianto ? I'm talking about what's on screen and on the show Jack was stuck at TW it was either work for us or be imprisoned by us and how Jack took over was only cause Alex killed everyone else. Jack is waiting for the Doctor to come and fix him and he can leave. If i was going to talk about who TW is about it's about Gwen and TW wouldn't have gotten up and made without JB as the lead actor and i acknowledge that, but i am talking about the show. Jack also doesn't create TW, it's not even his name to use, it's owned by the Crown, it's their Agency that Jack and Gwen worked for.

And yes i will say that TW has had eps that weren't Alien related, but that's s what it's was founded on with The Doctor as the number One Enemy and that's what i'm talking about. I'm not talking about JB and his acting career , i personally don't think TW would work without JB, but do i believe that they would try it with Rex a more American version yes i do , otherwise what's the point of Rex being immortal, just a joke ending

And you claim that characters dying doesn't bother you , i think it would bother you greatly if that character was Jack from your reply here. Cause i didn't mention anything about RTD, his personal life, what has happened to his partner or anything else, and this is quite a response. I was pointing out the differences in Star Trek that you mentioned as a comparison and why i think that comparison doesn't work and sorry but it shouldn't be called TW because Jack doesn't own TW he just worked for it and now it and it's charter is gone

[Meef]

That was meant in general as in how some of the fandom feel, :sad:

At the point Jack takes over Torchwood Three and after Canary Wharf the Doctor isn't public Enemy number one. After COE the crown seems to have let Torchwood fall into ruins, so my venture is that Torchwood is born again with Jack in charge.

Jack said that he came back because of his team other wise he could have just left. I don't think it was Jack's plan to leave Torchwood for The Doctor that was pretty clear in his speech to Ianto in TTLM, he just wanted answers and perhaps to be "fixed". It never was stated or felt to be Jack's over all plan to never come back. He was to dedicated to the institute for it to be part time to him. After all he hand picked his team and cared about them enough to love them.

In the early days, Jack didn't have a choice yes, but that changed with the promise of running into The Doctor again. Jack wasn't a fool, he knew that if he played along with Torchwood he would eventually come out on top.

Also the direction and definition of Torchwood can change as with a stroke of the writer's hand. What direction and who Torchwood belongs to now still falls into the hands of RTD to decide if the Crown maintains control. It is after all not set in stone and there was a major upset to the Universe since COE. So what was isn't anymore.

And if Jack dies he dies. I still wouldn't be upset. My life will go on with or with out him. It is just a TV show after all. It can be replaced.

[whoknows]

Now i'm not sure at all what you are saying Meef, yes Jack came back for his team and left because they were all dead, aside from Gwen who was starting a new life with her Family, so the end of COE made sense. No more TW that's gone, no more team for Jack the only reason he returned, so that he left and goes back to the stars where Jack comes from and loves to be and that's why he broods on roof tops

And i thought you comparing to Star Trek was wrong , cause they are all still in Star Fleet, there isn't any TW for Jack to reform, in MD they aren't working for Torchwood anymore. yes RTD wrote it and yes RTD can change the meaning of the word "Torchwood" or he can blow off the history he has created and pretend it doesn't matter, but to me Jack doesn't = Torchwood. Jack was the Head of Torchwood an agency founded by Queen Victoria that's lots of people throughout the years has worked for. If you want to say watch we watched for 3 Seasons doesn't count that's fine , but i was talking about your comparison. And you seem to defend jack and RTD and Torchwood with quite a vigor, so yes i think it would matter to you if Jack died, just like it matters to Ianto fans that he was killed off purely to make Jack sad for a moment and they have the right to feel like that cause they and me loved Ianto

[blackcat1000]

Jack was created for John Barrowman.

Really? If that is the case then why does JB in one of his autobiographies(the first I think) make such a big deal of reading for the role & his response to getting it?

Captain John was written for James Marsters.

ETA: And for me TW isn't Jack - I agree with whoknows that Jack was only with TW while he waited for the Doctor and the decided to return after TYTNW. For me TW was the whole (original) team so once it just became Jack & Gwen, no rift, no aliens etc, TW was dead to me.

[Meef]

If you can find something kind of article that is different, then that would be great. But this basically backs up what I have stated about the creation of Jack etc...


http://www.squidoo.com/captain-jack-harkness-torchwood (http://www.squidoo.com/captain-jack-harkness-torchwood)


And even though it is wiki there is this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Harkness

[blackcat1000]

No, not an article, like I said it is in one of JB's autobiographies. And while I don't doubt that once it was decided to do TW, Jack's character evolved around JB's personality, the man himself says he had to read for the part - I remember he said he did it with both a Scottish & American accent (because he could & because he really wanted the role). I can't find a date for the articles in the link but the earliest comment is dated June 2010 & JB's books were released in 2008 & 2009 so I'm thinking RTD & JG have re-created history to suite themselves.

[Meef]

Blackcat, Believe what you want. And I will believe what I want. I'm not entering into this debate again. We were talking about Ianto Jones.

whoknows, no I wouldn't feel sad about Jack's death a least not enough to harp on it years later. TV is pure entertainment for me as well as way to stimulate my brain in discussion. I watch a show called Sons of Anarchy that has kill off least three of my favorite characters, Piney being the latest and you know what I didn't protest or get upset. I just saw it as part of the story and nothing more. Kurt Sutter had no malice with his death, it was just how the story progressed and the way the character played out. Sad at the time but still something that I can move on from.

Ianto was a great character, but his death wasn't just to make Jack sad. It was meant to change Torchwood as well. A writer doesn't just destroy his universe unless he plans to rebuild it. Torchwood would not have existed unless RTD wrote it to begin with. How that universe changes including character death is in his hands. Ianto was one of those characters that had a moment in that universe, like Tosh, Owen and Esther. That is what stories do they progress and move forward and at times great character lose to unbeatable odds. But I move forward because the past can chain you to one place if you don't know how to let go of it. At least that is how I look at things. Moments pass and we wake up to something knew. Will I forget Ianto, no, but I won't let him get in the way of my future enjoyment of Torchwood. I'm looking forward to John and Carole's book. It should be amazing!

In a moment a person can die in a senseless way. TV often reflects that. I can accept character death because I know it is all about the story in the end. And Torchwood can always continue regardless of who is in it. But Jack is never ending, at least not until he becomes the Face of Boe. I think that was Russell's intent all along to make it all about Jack. And since RTD okay John's book, it seems he has faith in John to continue the character in the best of lights. And may Jack always have a Ianto in his memory.

[blackcat1000]

Meef, I was just responding to your point about Jack being created for JB, I did not try to change the topic. If you read JB's autobiographies you will read what I said was in there. And time lines in RL are linear - if JB says in 2008/9 that he read for the part & RDL says in 2010 he created the part for JB I'm sticking with the first statement. RTD can't re-write RL.

[Meef]

Meef, I was just responding to your point about Jack being created for JB, I did not try to change the topic. If you read JB's autobiographies you will read what I said was in there. And time lines in RL are linear - if JB says in 2008/9 that he read for the part & RDL says in 2010 he created the part for JB I'm sticking with the first statement. RTD can't re-write RL.

I own an autographed copy and read the book. I also reread the part you are talking about. And John doesn't mention if there were any others up against him. And like I said it is common for actors to do readings for a part even if the roles were designed for them. John had to do a screen test for Logan on DHW even though the creator had him in mind for the part. It is just the way things are done. John was also hired the same day he did the reading. So who is to say just how accurate his story is in his book. He may have changed his facts some what. Who can say?

Can you tell me what an article written in 2010 has to do with events in 2004? And good for you that you stick with what you feel is the truth. That is important. And I will stick with my truth since that is also important.

Why is it so important to you to try to find out if RTD possible is lying? Jack is just a character, something he creative, the ins and outs of it aren't really that important. Creative people often change their minds about events or may add things they didn't say before. John has been known to do that as well as every writer out there. But why is RTD such a focal point for the absolute truth? Mostly we never get the whole story because that won't save room for later autobiographical works. :smile:

[blackcat1000]

Meef, talking to you about RTD is like talking to a brick wall - I think he has many faults (as far as his profession goes - I don't care bout his personal life) and you seen to think he is perfect. That's fine, I don't need to change your opinion or anyone elses, and I'm not going to try. I'll stick to TW forums where topics are actually discussed and people have more than one agenda. Even thought I have enjoyed the comments of many people on this forum - especially angelkitty - you are too much of a kill joy for me to want to stay.

[Meef]

News flash this article dates from Nov. 16th 2008. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/3563293/John-Barrowman-hell-do-anything.html?oo=0

"Russell T. Davies had written the character of Captain Jack Harkness as an old-fashioned Hollywood hero. 'I knew of John and wanted him right from the start,' he says. 'There aren't too many actors in Britain who have those dashing Hollywood looks. We only called him in for the audition to check he hadn't aged too badly. It turned out that he still looked 21, the bastard!' He was originally set to appear in just five episodes of Doctor Who's first comeback series in 2005. But the character made such an immediate impact with audiences that he became a regular on the show."

[whoknows]

Ok first off Meef, are you on a forum about the other show you mentioned, do you chat about characters that have now gone, cause i don't understand what your problem is, if other people miss Ianto and want to chat about him, why does it matter to you that people move on nor do you know what you would feel if Jack was killed off, you already have it planned out in your head that Jack will become the Face of Boe so nothing will happen to Jack aside from turning into a big head in a jar. To me there has been too many yes Jack is , no Jack isn't to believe i know what will happen in some future TW story for certain

Second thing if Ianto death isn't about making Jack sad, then why is Ianto there , why isn't Gwen that her job but they have swapped jobs, Gwen on the computer which we have never seen her do take that role and Ianto with Jack to face the big bad, that's what Gwen does at TW. And as for moving on kill Gwen considering TW starts with her joining what better than to cut ties with the old as you "rebuild" your world than killing Gwen off

Thirdly if i go with your theory that RTD can do anything and doesn't have to pay any attention to the history that he has already created, cause it's "RTD story" then next series Jack can be a mortal plumber, who kills zombies at night under the Plumbing business name of "Torchwood" and Gwen his apprentice

Fourthly "Moving On" you have chatted alot about moving on, but nothing in TW has , it's the same story for the past 3 stories all they did was move Country Someone/something from Jacks past for EW = Gray, for COE = 456 for MD = Angelo & Families cause whatever to happen EW = destruction of Cardiff COE kids as drugs MD = people not dying, someone on the TW Team dies EW = Owen & Tosh, COE = Ianto MD = Esther, so exactly where is this "moving on" or "rebuilding" happening

Once again we disagree all over and that's ok, but i can still say i miss Ianto and that i think TW should have stopped after COE and Jacks character should have gone back amongst the stars where he comes from and we as a audience see Jack new life unfold and you can say as long as Gwen and Jack say the name "Torchwood" the show can be about anything ie Plumber/zombie hunter :laugh: and just be ok to disagree:smile:

[Meef]

Ok first off Meef, are you on a forum about the other show you mentioned, do you chat about characters that have now gone, cause i don't understand what your problem is, if other people miss Ianto and want to chat about him, why does it matter to you that people move on nor do you know what you would feel if Jack was killed off, you already have it planned out in your head that Jack will become the Face of Boe so nothing will happen to Jack aside from turning into a big head in a jar. To me there has been too many yes Jack is , no Jack isn't to believe i know what will happen in some future TW story for certain

Second thing if Ianto death isn't about making Jack sad, then why is Ianto there , why isn't Gwen that her job but they have swapped jobs, Gwen on the computer which we have never seen her do take that role and Ianto with Jack to face the big bad, that's what Gwen does at TW. And as for moving on kill Gwen considering TW starts with her joining what better than to cut ties with the old as you "rebuild" your world than killing Gwen off

Thirdly if i go with your theory that RTD can do anything and doesn't have to pay any attention to the history that he has already created, cause it's "RTD story" then next series Jack can be a mortal plumber, who kills zombies at night under the Plumbing business name of "Torchwood" and Gwen his apprentice

Fourthly "Moving On" you have chatted alot about moving on, but nothing in TW has , it's the same story for the past 3 stories all they did was move Country Someone/something from Jacks past for EW = Gray, for COE = 456 for MD = Angelo & Families cause whatever to happen EW = destruction of Cardiff COE kids as drugs MD = people not dying, someone on the TW Team dies EW = Owen & Tosh, COE = Ianto MD = Esther, so exactly where is this "moving on" or "rebuilding" happening

Once again we disagree all over and that's ok, but i can still say i miss Ianto and that i think TW should have stopped after COE and Jacks character should have gone back amongst the stars where he comes from and we as a audience see Jack new life unfold and you can say as long as Gwen and Jack say the name "Torchwood" the show can be about anything ie Plumber/zombie hunter :laugh: and just be ok to disagree:smile:

Never said you couldn't miss who ever you wanted. I just said I don't feel the same way and suddenly there is something wrong. I understand how you feel, but I don't feel the same way. You asked me if I would miss Jack if he died and I said I wouldn't for long. We all move to different drummers. I don't have an agenda as some may think, I just would rather talk about a characters life than the motive for his death by the person that created him.

Torchwood can always move on. I have read books and watch shows where they get rid of characters, in some books many during a part and the story still continue. In history people die and history is still written. Maybe I just believe that is how a story should go. I see the future even if the past or present looks bleak. I may just be a positive enough person to not spent my time in the past and believe enough in something that anything may happen. With John and Carole's Torchwood book it just goes to show that the franchise isn't dead and if John believes enough in writing a novel about Jack that is fine.

Sometimes in order to rebuild a story you have to have an area decomposition. That means breaking it down to its bear bones to rebuild a new world. In all epic tales we watch the fall of environment and at the end things get better. Foreshadowing in Jack's words, "the 21st century is where it all changes" isn't just meant that the world becomes all happy and full of roses and Jack and Ianto romp off and are happy together. It spoke of something far darker and more sinister setting the tone for Torchwood's story. It never said the future was bright just that it would change the way the Earth was in that Universe. Those words attracted me to this story. Those words allowed me to have a good time watching this darkness unfold. And the show had flaws and the show lost characters but it was still very much Torchwood in my eyes, the show that didn't promise a happy ending and never ever delivered one.

So when Ianto died I had a rather unpopular view because I saw his death as if I some how knew what RTD was going to do. He never intended this show to be about human love or life of a happy couple, he wanted his characters to suffer. Some say Gwen didn't get scratched. But that isn't true, she lost more because she survived it. And it changed her made her dark and tough, a fighter. Who knows if at some point she doesn't die. It may happen, it may not. But I do know that what ever happens, I still believe there is more to be told. And even if a new team is formed it makes no difference to me. I will still love Torchwood because I'm a believer in the tale and not a quitter because things didn't workout exactly the way I wanted them to. Trust me a lot of the show didn't happen the way I wanted. So I choose to discuss them. My views are unpopular as they should be. I always detested popular, it requires far less thinking and that is defiantly not my thing! :lol2:

Does my attitude make me a Kill Joy, because I hate when people insist on things that aren't true maybe that could be true. I am a bitch when it comes to people believing one way and insisting things are just that way. I don't put up with it in my daily life, there is always a real truth, not the one we make ourselves believe, so I will fight it, sorry that is just me. The Fact is that RTD did only have John try out for Jack not only in an article I posted above but there was an interview that RTD and John did live http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x76kuh_russell-t-davies-john-barrowman-che_shortfilms that states basically the same.

I get that people are always bitter about what RTD did to his show. But it is still no reason to assume that because someone doesn't agree with you that they have an agenda. I'm sorry, I don't, but some believe I do, that I'm some venomous Ianto hater that just wants to make people cry. Well that is the furthest from truths. It was said that some can't let others have a different opinion from theirs. I may not agree with yours but I would never have said you have an agenda nor would I.

In the end Ianto is still a great character and his death was sad and untimely. And maybe he did take Torchwood with him. Only time will tell, if Jack as a character makes it through the years telling a story maybe there will be a little spark of Torchwood left and enough to start a whole new set a fans to enjoy this story. We won't know until it happens. But that is no reason to judge people that don't agree with you, it was also no reason for splitting a fan base because not everyone is going to feel the same. I just happen to agree with what RTD did. That is my crime but not one warranted the treatment I have received by some.

[whoknows]

Well in that whole answer did you reply to anything i actually said, no Meef you didn't.Could you please actually read my post. Thank You:smile:

[Undead Medic]

If this debate is to continue, can we please refrain from making personal comments and insinuations. Thank you.

[whoknows]

I don't think i said anything personal, but you can correct me if i'm wrong. I was talking about Ianto's dying was about making Jack sad and when Jack left in COE that should have been the end of the use of the word "Torchwood", which is an organisation , not Jack the person and shouldn't be compared with Star Trek , because all of the Star Trek spin offs still have the people work for Star Fleet

As for Blackcat1000 saying that Meef was a killjoy, i think that's because Meef was seeming like she got to decide what you could feel about things, like Ianto death and still missing him years later and this is a Torchwood Forum, why wouldn't people come and talk about the characters the miss, whether that's Ianto or Tosh or Owen or Esther

I truly don't know what Meef post was about other than she seems very upset but history or something that has happened before, no -one was calling her a bitch or anything else that i read. But if you feel that a line was crossed somehow could i ask where that line is so it doesn't happen again

Thank You Undead Medic

[chironsgirl]

Would I want Ianto back? Bleep, yes! Will I get my wish? Bleep, NO! People seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar here. Would I like a TW back, with JB? Oh my, very much yes! I wear my "Torchwood I Love Jack" bracelet all the time. Not a fan of the Rex thing. But ( and I'm taking my life in my hands here) I really liked the whole Gwen/Rhys/Andy mix. I have hope for a new TW following the use of these familiar characters trying to remake a new TW Institute , with a new charter. I have no idea what John and Carole's book will be about, but I hope it will help carry the TW story forward.

I had no idea that RTD's partner was ill. Of course he would drop everything to take care of his partner. It is understandable that a tv show is not on the top of RTD's list of things to worry about.

Could all of us take a deep breath and remember that we like each other, we have banded together cuz no one else will have us, and that WE ARE GLOBAL!

[Meef]

Could all of us take a deep breath and remember that we like each other, we have banded together cuz no one else will have us, and that WE ARE GLOBAL!

You are right. I get so wrapped up in discussing this show, I forget we are all the same. I love Ianto as a character, and if by some great gift he comes back, I would be just as happy. But if that doesn't happen, I won't forget him. But my love for Torchwood will still go on and I won't fault its creator for his choices because it doesn't fit my ideas of this show. But I accept what has happened because I can see a future. Torchwood isn't just an average TV show, it goes well beyond that and can reshape itself to fit just about anything. That is what I love about the show, its progressive format of change, much like the way life is, ever changing, growing and moving forward.

Torchwood is more than the some total of its characters. It could go on in different guise for many many years. Characters can come and go and even the Crown could deny it but it will prevail. That was the message, that no matter what happen Torchwood lives. I just love the concept of this show and hope some day I could create a flexible universe like Torchwood where it doesn't run on a set pattern and life is bold and senseless but some how people carry on. In my opinion it gives a great message that nothing is truly hopeless and if one person falls another person will continue.

Here is the synopses about Exodus Code http://www.amazon.com/Torchwood-Exodus-Code-John-Barrowman/dp/1846079071

[Liinus]

I've been reading, a little of this topic, I want to give my opinion about Ianto, first he is my favorurite Character in Torchwood, I love him xD and of course, I cried a lot with Children of Earth, also a I think he wan't have to die... but, you know, that is the creator's choice, and we have to accept it XDD I missed him so much in The miracle day... Anyway, I still love Torchwood, is more than a simple TV Serie, is a part of my life, And Ianto Jones will live in my heart forever :P

[gravitule]

Indeed it's the writer's choice (and also the producer who will decide to produce it that way or not) but at the end it's my choice not to like it and not to accept it. That's why I didn't watch Miracle Day and that's why I will also not buy Exodus Code as I just discovered with the first review that there is no Ianto in it.
But you are right, he will live in our heart, and in fanfiction and on youtube :), for ever.

[Liinus]

That's why I didn't watch Miracle Day and that's why I will also not buy Exodus Code as I just discovered with the first review that there is no Ianto in it.
But you are right, he will live in our heart, and in fanfiction and on youtube :), for ever.

You have a point too. I watched Miracle Day, because I Follow the entire series, but, we're free to watch it or not, just like you said. And now, I want to read some fics hahaha

[lawsontl]

No Ianto mentions in "Exodus Code"? Well, there's a tidy chunk of money saved! Where's the review you read? I haven't seen any yet, and, sadly, I was really looking forward to Barrowman's POV (well, John's particularly) on all the events from CoE onward getting at least a bit of play in the book.

[whoknows]

No Ianto mentions in "Exodus Code"? Well, there's a tidy chunk of money saved! Where's the review you read? I haven't seen any yet, and, sadly, I was really looking forward to Barrowman's POV (well, John's particularly) on all the events from CoE onward getting at least a bit of play in the book.

I'm surprised there is no topic for this , i thought everyone who loved Md would be thrilled by it, but it's just another post Md story, so absolutely no -one from " Classic Torchwood" mentioned at all , just another world wide scale and what happens is all because of Jacks past again and all about Gwack both present and past tense, so same thing as COE and MD except no dies in this probably cause they haven't hired anyone new to replace Esther yet to die in this LOL i won'r be buying it just like i haven't bothered with the other post MD books but here are two reviews i read

http://www.sfx.co.uk/2012/09/14/torchwood-exodus-code-review/


http://scifibulletin.com/doctor-who/reviews/review-torchwood-exodus-code/

[gravitule]

No Ianto mentions in "Exodus Code"? Well, there's a tidy chunk of money saved! Where's the review you read? I haven't seen any yet, and, sadly, I was really looking forward to Barrowman's POV (well, John's particularly) on all the events from CoE onward getting at least a bit of play in the book.

To be honest, there is a very short mention of Ianto in it. But it is only 2 lines long where I was expecting at least 2 pages of flashback...Two lines doesn't count in my books to say Ianto is in it. Even if the mention (which is a memory - someone sent me the extract) is sweet you can feel it's only here to say 'Hey, we didn't forgot about him", nothing more.

Therefore I will definitively not buy the book. I am so disappointed. I so wished for some big Jack/Ianto flashback.....ot even for a pre-COE novel...