Study in Ethics: Cloning Ianto and other ways to revive him.

[Meef]

I was running the cloning idea around to people and I decide it would interesting to see what people thought.
Now you have to realize that a clone needs to mature and it would not have the same environmental stimulus need to produce the Ianto Jones we know and love, but it could be molded in certain ways. What do you think? Do you think it would be a good thing or unethical to do this? How else would you bring Ianto back?

Also I was asked to change the title so we can now discuss other topics concerning ethics or morals, but lets limit that to just Television and Books.

[nightowl]

Hmmm, interesting.

You clone a person and grow a new Ianto. But the only thing that would be the same is the DNA and the name. The clone would be a new personality entirely, and may grow up to be someone completely different, having different experiences.

Aimee and I were just discussing this, and one of the things that occurred to me is that even if you had some sort of computer record of Ianto's memories and experiences, would it be fair to wipe a clone just to bring back the Ianto that Jack loves?

Hence the question of ethics. If you could grow a Ianto, would you?

[Cayendi]

I take it you two are not talking about the clones we got when we became inhabitants of Gutter Country :wink: ?

Either of you seen dollhouse btw?
Because there they do exactly that, wipe minds and imprint them with a different personality

It also depends on how you grow the clone. You could say, for instance, that the clone is merely the shell, waiting for an imprint before it becomes an actual someone.

Anything with a conscience already present from the first moment, cannot be a clone, since, as stated above, they will grow up with their own personality ...

just my two cents

As far as ethics is concerned ... We know *we* mean no harm, unfortunately there are so few of us.
I'd hate for cloning to become a matter of chosing sex and character of your baby and such things.
I like to see cloning more as a very modern, very human like robot, designed to 'prolong' someone's life, give them a chance to live on ...

[peanutbutter]

Hmmm, interesting.

You clone a person and grow a new Ianto. But the only thing that would be the same is the DNA and the name. The clone would be a new personality entirely, and may grow up to be someone completely different, having different experiences.

Exactly. A clone is basically the same as a twin.



Aimee and I were just discussing this, and one of the things that occurred to me is that even if you had some sort of computer record of Ianto's memories and experiences, would it be fair to wipe a clone just to bring back the Ianto that Jack loves?

Hence the question of ethics. If you could grow a Ianto, would you?

No, I wouldn't .

OTOH, if Ianto himself had decided to grow a clone and save a backup of his memories to use in case he died, I guess I could accept that. Dunno why, but cloning yourself seems less wrong than cloning somebody else.

[Meef]

There was a movie called Clonus that was made in the 80's I think that dealt with rich people cloning themselves, the clone would enjoy a normal active life, because they would need to stay healthy. But then one day they would get to leave and it was considered a great thing. They would leave to be used for body parts. Not very Ethical. Not very Moral. I would hate to think that we stoop that low that we grow another self to live longer. Why just grow the parts like heart and liver ect... What do you do with the body, just dump it. I know make Soylent Green out of the spare parts.

[nightowl]

ick

The Dollhouse reference is an interesting one - but in those cases, the actives sign a contract knowingly, do get paid handsomely while they're under contract, and aren't forced to do it. And they will be given their own personality and life experiences at the end of their contract.


so if Ianto had grown himself a clone it would have been okay? Interesting. I think he would have had the same problems with it that we did, unless you do an insta clone like they did with Martha and so there are no real experiences since the clone isn't truly "alive" until brought out of the tank.

Does that still make it right?

[Cayendi]

There was a movie called Clonus that was made in the 80's I think that dealt with rich people cloning themselves, the clone would enjoy a normal active life, because they would need to stay healthy. But then one day they would get to leave and it was considered a great thing. They would leave to be used for body parts. Not very Ethical. Not very Moral. I would hate to think that we stoop that low that we grow another self to live longer. Why just grow the parts like heart and liver ect... What do you do with the body, just dump it. I know make Soylent Green out of the spare parts.I'm so happy I never saw that film. That is a hideous idea!

and I suddenly feel the need to clarify that when I mean modern robot, I don't mean a subhuman form, I mean equality (to me that went without saying, but after reading this ... )


OTOH, if Ianto himself had decided to grow a clone and save a backup of his memories to use in case he died, I guess I could accept that. Dunno why, but cloning yourself seems less wrong than cloning somebody else. I agree!

[Cayendi]

so if Ianto had grown himself a clone it would have been okay? Interesting. I think he would have had the same problems with it that we did, unless you do an insta clone like they did with Martha and so there are no real experiences since the clone isn't truly "alive" until brought out of the tank.

Does that still make it right?
We are an evolving species, technology wise, and I have no problem with the idea of clones grown in a tank (for lack of other examples) who won't be truy alive until they're taken out and imprinted with the personality of the person wanting to be cloned (with the understanding that said person is not alive, cause one of each is enough).
Of course, the idealist in me demanding clones to have the same rights, same obligations that we have.

(I know, I have way too much imagination, which is why I'm a writer)

[edit:2tkqn0fu]this discussion is giving me plot ideas *sigh* just when I don't need them *points to sig*[/edit:2tkqn0fu]

[edit:2tkqn0fu]Of course, I also assume no human/animal/other is hurt/abused in the process of building clones[/edit:2tkqn0fu]

[Meef]

Hmmm, interesting.

You clone a person and grow a new Ianto. But the only thing that would be the same is the DNA and the name. The clone would be a new personality entirely, and may grow up to be someone completely different, having different experiences.

Exactly. A clone is basically the same as a twin.



Aimee and I were just discussing this, and one of the things that occurred to me is that even if you had some sort of computer record of Ianto's memories and experiences, would it be fair to wipe a clone just to bring back the Ianto that Jack loves?

Hence the question of ethics. If you could grow a Ianto, would you?




No, I wouldn't .

OTOH, if Ianto himself had decided to grow a clone and save a backup of his memories to use in case he died, I guess I could accept that. Dunno why, but cloning yourself seems less wrong than cloning somebody else.


Actually a clone is grown from a single cell. It isn't really a twin. It is a duplicate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning
A twin is formed by dividing the cells in one egg or two individual eggs fertilized at the same time. So in Cloning Ianto you would be creating an exact copy, expect in experience. The new Ianto would grow up differently then the original Ianto. Also as in plants, the cloning processes becomes weaker the further you get from the original. So a clone of a Ianto's clone would be not as good as a clone from Ianto prime. And so on. So you better hope that if best you could get a decent clone off the second Ianto if you can't pull any more cells off the other Ianto.

[nightowl]

Oh, good point! I like the plant analogy. It makes an excellent point in that regard!

[SerenityChaos]

Hey. As long as Ianto clones come out like a Ford Assembly line all suited, holding a coffee maker, I don't mind it. :D

[nightowl]

Good to see you have your priorities straight, SC! :grin:

[Kaleidoscope]

Aimee and I were just discussing this, and one of the things that occurred to me is that even if you had some sort of computer record of Ianto's memories and experiences, would it be fair to wipe a clone just to bring back the Ianto that Jack loves?

Omg, Miles and I have had this exact debate on several occasions (not over Ianto, as fun as it would've been, just in general.) Pretty much word for word! He thinks that it is okay to wipe a clone and place another persons memories in the body. I think it's wrong because the clone is still a person at the end of the day, regardless of where they came from. So as much as I love Ianto, I wouldn't do that. A clone wouldn't be the Ianto we love and a clone with a wiped mind would be wrong.

[Oogy Waa Waa]

I'm so happy I never saw that film. That is a hideous idea!


Did you see a film that came out a few years ago called "The Island"? Ewan Mc Gregor was in it and Michael Bay (Transformers) directed it. If you saw that then you saw Clonus, but with more explosions. So much of The Island’s story was stolen from Clonus that the original screenwriter sued and won.



So, cloning eh? Let's think about how this can happen, and the consequences therein.

Let’s assume that there is a back up of Ianto’s brain somewhere on a thumb drive in Torchwood and that Jack has the means to re-create his body in the Creepy Crawlers Oven playset. Let’s also assume that Jack will be growing Ianto as an adult for immediate results and doesn’t have to wait twenty something years. Finally, we’ll then assume that this Ianto back up is constant and he can either remember the events leading up to his death or at least events within a 24 hour period (assuming back-up is connected to a mainframe via wireless neural implant that Ianto is unaware of or somehow it downloads his conscience when he touches a keyboard).

Reminder, we need Ianbto's full conscience. Not having this means you have to re-create his brain based on assumptions. That is like putting a jigsaw puzzle together with the image face down and all the pieces are extremely similar. Otherwise you’re stuck with the Frankenstein brain switch and hopefully Gwen doesn’t drop the brain and grab Abbie’s. Although I like the classic style of the brain in a jar, it’s impractical given Ianto’s death and the brain would have to be harvested almost immediately for this to work. I don't think the Suzie glove would work in this case.

Keep in mind, we have to have Ianto’s full conscience available. We simply cannot re-create the body without the brain. Otherwise Ianto will have the mind of a baby in an adult’s body. He will have to be changed, fed, taught how to walk, talk, etc. If that’s Jack’s thing than fine. Otherwise Jack will have to save the world while Ianto is sitting in the SUV’s booster seat with his Paddington doll, or worse, slung over Jack’s shoulder in a harness while wearing an adorable bonnet. If that happens than at least Gwen’s kid will have a giant playmate.

Speaking of, I wonder if Jack could implant Ianto’s genetic coding within Gwen's child so that someday Ianto can return and Jack will be ready for him. I’m going to vote on this and say that doing so is morally questionable.

Anywhos, let’s discuss the morality of what we have so far. Ianto’s got that new body smell and Jack is ready to copy Ianto’s brain to the new body. How tempting would it be to simply see what’s on Ianto’s mind. Let’s also assume that Ianto’s brain has a Youtube function and not only can Jack see what Ianto saw, but know what he was thinking. What if Jack finds out that Ianto was having second thoughts and wanted to break up with him after the whole 456 thing was over? Would he just pull the plug on the project? Worse yet, would Jack alter or delete those thoughts? Is it even fair that Jack would know that ahead of time and immediately get to work on forcibly changing Ianto’s mind. Heck, is it even moral to change Ianto’s annoying singing in the shower habit that Jack can’t stand (or whatever Ianto does that Jack doesn’t like).

But, let’s get beyond the pettiness and assume that Jack is cool with Ianto being Ianto. Now we get into the real issues. First, knowing that Jack went through everything to bring him back is the first idea to wrap your head around. He did all of this for you and you only. It’s not like you ‘re exceptionally qualified like Tosh or Owen. Why you and not them? You start to ask yourself “Well, why did he really bring me back?” Will “I love you” work? Then you have to contend with what you owe him for doing so. If Jack and you have an argument, do you break up with him? After all, he only slapped God in the face and brought you back to life. If you’re Gwen, you have to ask yourself “Where’s my clone? I’m not working here anymore unless I get my clone.” Then, as Ianto, you have to wonder if you have the secret to immortality. Why you could just keep replacing your body as long as you have a spare. So now, you have no fear of death. Which is really not good if you work for Torchwood. You’ll think “What, I can’t die. I’ll take that risk!” Most importantly though is Ianto OK with Jack having access to his private thoughts like that? Even if Jack doesn’t, can Ianto ever be sure? Does he trust Jack or any member of Torchwood that much? His coworkers used to leave with alien tech in their briefcases, can he trust any of them?


Now, imagine that Ianto wakes up and 24 hours of his memory are gone (option B). It’s explained to him that during the 456, something bad happened and we put your consciousness into a back up and we’re missing the last 24 hours (aka, that last time you saved the game). That would freak him out beyond compare. First off, who knew they were secretly keeping his thoughts on file. Second, he would remember the events of “Adam” and no matter what they tell him it’s all a lie created by an alien non-corporeal and they don't believe you. In fact, the more they try to convince Ianto the more he will resist. He could check his diary and see that they appear to be telling the truth, but maybe Adam just learned a more effective way to change reality. Even, then, suppose that Jack came up with a lie that Ianto hit his head and has been in a coma for a few days. Eventually, like all lies, he will find out the truth. He’s entrenched in the paperwork and daily activities of the institute. He smuggled a cyber-woman without anyone noticing the spike in the electricity bill. He’ll find a hole in there somewhere. He’ll ask about it, probably be suspicious, and eventually find the truth and go back to the beginning of this paragraph.


If however Ianto is OK will all of these events happening and just goes back to being Ianto then he’ll be golden. It’s unrealistic, but at least it’s a happy ending.



But seriously guys, come on. Cloning? We’re resorting to cartoon mad science to being him back? Might as well make Jack dress in women’s lingerie, sing songs about being from Transylvania and dress Ianto in a blonde wig and gold lame’ underwear.

Instead, how about saying that Jack traveled back to the moment that Ianto was about to die and did a body swap. He grabbed Ianto’s body…somehow…and replaced it with a clone that was programmed with a set sequence of moves and dialog. Then Ianto is safe, alive, and will carry on his life knowing that Jack is his guardian angel. Better yet, use space leprechauns.

[nightowl]

Can I just state here now in public how much I love your posts, Oogy? You have a way of getting to the heart of the matter while bringing a huge smile to my face. Thank you for that!

[Oogy Waa Waa]

Thanks. My favorite line today was describing Jack as "heavy with eggs" in the end of the world thread.

[peanutbutter]

Might as well make Jack dress in women’s lingerie, sing songs about being from Transylvania and dress Ianto in a blonde wig and gold lame’ underwear.


Well, Ianto mentioned 'innovative' to Martha, so who knows, they might have tried stuff like that. :grin:

[nightowl]

There's definitely a fic or two about it....

[Meef]

But seriously guys, come on. Cloning? We’re resorting to cartoon mad science to being him back? Might as well make Jack dress in women’s lingerie, sing songs about being from Transylvania and dress Ianto in a blonde wig and gold lame’ underwear.




OMG didn't you write a story like this Suzanne!

Wait we all know Rocky was manufactured and it was a spoof of the Monster in Frankenstein. Sorry that is not cloning.
:hugs:

[bshabbat2]

:nono: None for me thanks! I am old fashioned when it comes to "my soap opera-like return from the dead" story arcs - they typically fall into three categories: 1) everyone wakes up and it was all just a bad dream, 2) the person's previously unknown twin surfaces, or 3) the always good, "how did you know he was really was dead if you didn't see a body in a casket" strategy.

[Mystery01]

Okay I should of found this sooner!
There is a RPG where you can pay to have your memories stored and then later put into a sped grown clone!
An unethical practice in many books I've read is to fidle with the memories so the clone is subtly or not so subtly programed to be to their owners choosing making them basically slaves that are willing and literally can't function with out their owner!!
Now i don't think Jack would do that to Ianto and if he can clone Ianto with his memories intact then why didn't he do that for Tosh?
and how did he get the equipment to clone him when the hub was destroyed ?

[gisyl]

Now i don't think Jack would do that to Ianto and if he can clone Ianto with his memories intact then why didn't he do that for Tosh?
and how did he get the equipment to clone him when the hub was destroyed ?
That is what I thought too.

I also would think that if there was the slightes possibility that Jack could clone,I`m pretty sure that the first person he would clone wouldn`t be Ianto but Stephan.
If only to stop the pain Alice is feeling over the loss of her son.

[nightowl]

I also would think that if there was the slightes possibility that Jack could clone,I`m pretty sure that the first person he would clone wouldn`t be Ianto but Stephan.
If only to stop the pain Alice is feeling over the loss of her son.

I don't know, wouldn't that freak out Alice more? The first thing she'd do is think Steven was immortal like his grandfather and that he'll ALWAYS be stuck as an 8 year old! She'd run screaming for the hills and never look back!

[Meef]

I also would think that if there was the slightes possibility that Jack could clone,I`m pretty sure that the first person he would clone wouldn`t be Ianto but Stephan.
If only to stop the pain Alice is feeling over the loss of her son.

I don't know, wouldn't that freak out Alice more? The first thing she'd do is think Steven was immortal like his grandfather and that he'll ALWAYS be stuck as an 8 year old! She'd run screaming for the hills and never look back!

The is always some sort of Deus EX Machina in Science Fiction that would allow Jack to have his Ianto-matic. It always made me wonder that these devices are never used again. The Time/Telepathic device that Tosh used to talk to Tommy in TTLM would have been great to get in touch with Jack and Tosh in 1941 in Captain Jack. Would have saved Ianto from wasting a bullet on Owen. Tosh could have gave the other half of the formula to them direct.

Also there is a greed in bringing some one back as a clone. It is rather self serving. It is either for love or profit. Jack wasn't in love with Tosh, but the thought of starting Grey from scratch is intriguing. All those old bad memories gone and new happy ones in their place. Steven would be bought back I'm sure, but Alice would probably be mad that Jack didn't use the knowledge to give her Mother another chance at life. or a new heart at the least. So we are back to Ethics.

[Mystery01]

In books where cloning is used and the writing is good
there is usually a catch such as
the person either needing to go and have their brain read on a regular basis
and if the last time they went in was 3 months ago then they have a 3 month memory gap!
or having to have a chip implanted in their head and
if can't be recovered then no memories for the clone!
So with one of these in place it means not every one could be cloned or
some important memories might be missing!!

[gisyl]

Also there is a greed in bringing some one back as a clone. It is rather self serving. It is either for love or profit. Jack wasn't in love with Tosh, but the thought of starting Grey from scratch is intriguing. All those old bad memories gone and new happy ones in their place. Steven would be bought back I'm sure, but Alice would probably be mad that Jack didn't use the knowledge to give her Mother another chance at life. or a new heart at the least. So we are back to Ethics.

And that makes the circle round
It would always be a question of Ethics.
It`s a interesting discussion.

[Sqyd]

Studies conducted with twins who were separated at birth showed that they end up growing up to be very similar personality-wise, despite of different environments. Of course, Ianto had some traumatic experience that shaped who he was, but possibly Jack wouldn't mind a less damaged Ianto. Also, it wouldn't have to be Jack doing the cloning. Everything is possible with good writing. I could imaging cloning work in fan fiction, but not so much on the show, since it was never the Janto show, that was only one of the minor threads.

However it would be possible to bring back Ianto without it being totally cheesy. Again, it depends on the writing. He could even stay dead and still be on the show. Six Feet Under, Dexter had/has recurring characters who are dead, in Dead Like Me the all the main characters were technically dead.

[Meef]

Studies conducted with twins who were separated at birth showed that they end up growing up to be very similar personality-wise, despite of different environments. Of course, Ianto had some traumatic experience that shaped who he was, but possibly Jack wouldn't mind a less damaged Ianto. Also, it wouldn't have to be Jack doing the cloning. Everything is possible with good writing. I could imaging cloning work in fan fiction, but not so much on the show, since it was never the Janto show, that was only one of the minor threads.

However it would be possible to bring back Ianto without it being totally cheesy. Again, it depends on the writing. He could even stay dead and still be on the show. Six Feet Under, Dexter had/has recurring characters who are dead, in Dead Like Me the all the main characters were technically dead.

I don't think Ghost Ianto would cut it, though I had that idea in one of my FanFictions that I am working on, but technical he isn't dead well not in a dead way. Any way I would think it odd to have him act like Harry in Dexter, I would have to question Jack's sanity and unlike Dexter, Ianto wasn't his right or wrong button and not part of the ritual, If you know what I mean. I would like to hear more of what would be considered good writing to bring Ianto back. Might as well expand the topic a bit! :wink:

[Sqyd]

I don't think Ghost Ianto would cut it, though I had that idea in one of my FanFictions that I am working on, but technical he isn't dead well not in a dead way. Any way I would think it odd to have him act like Harry in Dexter, I would have to question Jack's sanity and unlike Dexter, Ianto wasn't his right or wrong button and not part of the ritual, If you know what I mean. I would like to hear more of what would be considered good writing to bring Ianto back. Might as well expand the topic a bit! :wink:

Technically that's not a ghost. Harry is Dexter's nonexistent conscience. He is not real, but is in Dexter's mind. Having Ianto back that way wouldn't be as squee inducing as having a living, breathing, shaggable Ianto, but would fit well with a now darker, broodier Jack.

There are other possibilities too. Have you watched Battlestar Galactica? In it Baltar is accompanied by a Six that only he can see, touch (and shag). At first she seems imaginary, but at the end it looks like she isn't. There is at least one fanfic that uses this idea:
part 1 (http://baka-writes.livejournal.com/14753.html)
part 2 (http://baka-writes.livejournal.com/15023.html)

The possibilities are endless. I have an idea myself, but it's taking forever to write it.

I consider this fic (http://dsudis.livejournal.com/453240.html) very good writing, even though it's technically not a fix!fic, it still has the same themes. However good writing in fan fiction and in the actual tv show are not the same thing. There are fanfics that have great plot and could really be made into episodes, or at least books, fanfics tend to concentrate on relationships, character at such depth that is not possible in the show. What I would consider good writing for the show would be something on the level of the best of HBO shows; Six Feet Under, Deadwood, True Blood, The Wire, Carnivàle. They are all very different shows, but the point is that level of writing is high. Even Dexter - the underlying premise is totally implausible, yet you go along with it because it's written well.

[Meef]

The question would be why would Ianto be a shaggable part of Jack'subconscience? Why not everyone he has lost at that some point. Ianto would have to be defined as different then the rest of Jack's loves. To carry Ianto around with him in that type of manner it would have to mean something important. In Baltar's case it was love and she had embedded herself into in mind. That could be considered an implant of sorts(never watched the show so that is just a guess). Harry is Dexter's guardian angel in many ways, (which are created by the psyche, at least I think) so he actual points Dexter in the right direction, you see a lot of that in the new season. Ianto's existence would have to be justified for it to work. And I would bet it is Jack's sanity that would be questioned.

As far as Fic's go I'll take a look, I really just write them and try not to read to many. But considering to open holes the series leaves in the scripts. ( still working on Gray and keep going back to the blowfish and John in KKBB) it would require a clever, very clever "ghost Ianto" like concept for it to work.

By the way, I like this discussion. :hugs:

[Sqyd]

I didn't say it would have to be shaggable, it's just an option. I don't think it was ever so simple in BSG as you surmise. Their "relationship" was quite volatile. In the last season one of the Sixes turned out to have an 'imaginary' Baltar, and it all ended with a Baltar and a Six together, but you really didn't know which. That show had some complexities, I don't expect from TW. Btw, I highly recommend watching it.

Why Ianto, why now? Good question. Maybe Jack reached a breaking point. He Just killed his own grandson, lost everything. Why not Stephen then? Because he is an uncomplicated child Jack barely knows. Ianto on the other hand is a complex character that would make an ideal imaginary companion to a slightly batty Jack. There are all those intricate layers love, betrayal, forgiveness, etc. between them that could make it quite interesting.

It's really a question of interpretation, but I never saw Harry as a guardian angel - that would mean he was something that existed outside of Dexter. In my view, Harry is part of Dexter; a manifestation of something very deep down in this psyche. Dexter was not born a monster, but made into one, so deep down there might have been a spark of humanity in him - something that can reach Dexter's conscious mind because of (the real) Harry's teachings.

[Meef]

Okay first off I tried to watch BSG and found it to be a little to religious with the Cylons believing in God etc... it just wasn't to my taste. The whole Baltar/six thing is what turned me off from the beginning. Maybe because I still can't believe that a man as intelligent as he was suppose to be would be lead around by sex in the first place. He mourned her to the point of existence. She in turn did the same thing. I still think the relationship was designed as a means of control, after all the Cylons needed to use Baltar as a way in to begin with. So it was more then likily something that was realised with sexual contact, a hallucinogen perhaps (visions of the sex scene with her spine blinking red brings that to mind). Weather the relationship can be seen as love, that is for the individual to interpret. But if you think it is good that is your right.

Dexter feels guilty about Harry's suicide. Harry was Dexter's creator or rather trainer. I don't consider Dexter to be a monster, he is no different then any other Super hero, or man of justice. Harry trained him to use his abilities to stay a live and for justice. Did you ever read Watchman. They all came from some twisted fate but try to work for the some reasonable forum of justice.

Harry like Amber with House was a reflection of guilt that manifest in the mind when one actions deliberately cause the death of another. Dexter being caught in the act and House with Amber coming to get him at the bar. The use of these characters as in the case of Amber pushed House to his limits. Dexter is probably more human then he seems. That is all in interpretation. When I said "guardian angel" it is because Harry is used to protect Dexter by Dexter. Harry points out things Dexter misses etc... that is what a "guardian angel" does, protect, it is not meant to be a religious thing, much the same way a Christ figure describes a characters martyrdom. Not necessarily a raise to the heavens.

Jack is a lot stronger then the average person. I would think the death of two people he loved drives him to form an imaginary Ianto would be idiotic. He would have broke a long time before COE say after Gray. So if that is the case, Jack would have been spiraling down since then. And we would also have assume that Jack's mind was indeed human. Since it was mentioned that he has a little Alien in him, and he was trained as a time agent, also Tosh could not read his mind, one would think that his sub conscience would not create and imaginary Ianto. Which brings me to why Ianto, because if it is guilty over his death or never admitting he loved him, then I would think that Jack would have a whole head full of "demons" and "guardian angels" just waiting to "haunt" him. Including 12 random children.

[EyeCandy]

Take a look to this ersh... fan-comic? About the point of Ianto being cloned, you probably will find it interesting :wink: The links of the other chapters are on the description.

Time Loop by Nimius (http://nimius.deviantart.com/art/Time-Loop-Logic-Pg-01-135044766)

And agreed with Meef. I can see the possibility of Ianto being cloned in some way or maybe Ianto being a ghost like in the chapter Ghost Machine or random Shoes, but I think that Jack has a very strong mind to have Ianto as a imaginary friend.

[Sqyd]

Again, it's all interpretations. Dexter is a psychopath, not capable of feeling guilt, or any other emotions. Although in the current season something is breaking through, as he realizes that he cares about his family. I didn't read Watchman, saw the movie, hated it. I don't particularly care for superheroes, but maybe they are all psychopaths.

In BSG religion had quite a work out; the Cylons were monotheist, the humans not. Neither was declared right or wrong, in the end, but the presence of this religious thread made sense in respect of the ending. It was one of many threads.

Jack being stronger than the an average person. Sure. The thing is that TW is spun from such slight thread, it's very easy to read it and the characters in so many different ways. Probably that's why it is such a fertile ground for fanfics. I'm still scratching my head over people walking around with gunshot wounds like they were mosquito bites, Jack's indestructible coat, TW causing more deaths of innocent bystanders than aliens, etc. If Jack is so strong why is he running off, leaving his responsibilities behind. Also, for a strong person, he is surprisingly weepy. It's basically whatever the writers come up with.

[Sqyd]

PS. I don't see having an imaginary Ianto a sign of weakness. You don't have to look at it as literally as some sort of mental problem. I would see him cloning Ianto weirdly obsessive however. Although, it depends how it's written. I've read fics that worked for me, despite their concept being something I didn't really agree with.

[EyeCandy]

Oh don't misinterpret me, I'm not saying that have an imaginary friend is a sign of weakness, of course is not! Lot of children have one, I had one! My point is like Meef said that Jacks is a trained and old minded, he lived a lot to be obsessed with something or someone, you know he was married and his wife died and he just keep going. Jack know more than everyone that the life is continuing. But I'm agreed with you and I dunno why if Jack is as strong as he seems, I don't know why he walk away... I don't have the answer.

But the fact of Ianto visiting Jack being a ghost is a very good one! I've read a lot of fanfictions (In English and Spanish) and all of the with awesome ideas to bring Ianto back. And yeah TW has a very good writers I hope they don't deceive us in the next season cause I think I'm not ready for a season without Ianto...

[Meef]

Even a God weeps. Mental discipline doesn't mean you wipe out emotion. The strong willed can cry, that isn't the point. Jack is far to advanced to fall back on an imaginary Ianto. I think he would have others like his dad way before Ianto if that was the case. I don't consider running to be week either. It takes a strong person to know when enough is a enough. If an abused woman leaves her husband do you say she is weak or strong? After all Jack has done everything for the world that he fell into by accident. Maybe he is sick of it. That no matter what happens it is still the same stinking death hole that it was when he first arrive. Everyone has a breaking point, that doesn't mean it leads to imaginary Ianto's. Nor does it mean that Jack isn't strong. The tears he sheds may be regret and pain. It takes a strong person to admit to their emotions.

(Wikipedia states:)
Psychopathy is a psychological construct that describes chronic disregard for ethical principles and antisocial behavior. This is not true of Dexter for he only goes after those that hurt others. Antisocial to some extent, but he is not isolated, Rita and Debra, the interaction with those around him keep his darker side in check.

Ethics seeks to address the question of morality. Is what Dexter does moral if the outcome it achieves good? In the end he brings down the bad ones society through do process fail to lock up. The code Harry taught Dexter can be loosely interpreted as a moral code because his has been programed to kill in the name of justice. Harry made him so to keep him form just random killing. Also he was taught to be clever so he would stay alive.

[EyeCandy]

I think that when you felt at the limit the only thing that you can do is run away, or keep yourself away from others.

When my dad died any of my friends didn't understood me and I felt so alone, in the same year my granddad died too and it was just... well you know. I took my own decision, staying at home alone, not wanting to see anyone, just wanting to be alone... Just because I couldn't ran away... But trust me, in that moment you just want to disappear from the earth, so many times I've dreamed about the Doctor coming to rescue me... (How insane I am!).

Jack probably felt his limit, you know, Suzie, Gray, Tosh, Owen, Ianto and his own grandson... He felt guilty because in case of the Torchwood members he convinced them to join the team, and in case of his grandson, I guess he felt that he just failed trying to take care of his family all this years.

Maybe in his dreams Ianto come and visit him, or like I've said before Ianto can come back as a ghost. The only thing that I know certainly is that Jack remembers everyone who died around him, and I guess that he's going to keep his promise to Ianto remembering him forever.

[Meef]

That was beautiful Alicia! :hugs: Your not crazy,I feel that way all the time. Your thoughts will follow me to bed. Night night all!

[EyeCandy]

I think that a lot of people need the Doctor to rescue them, and I still have the hope to him coming to me. Night night to you hun, have sweet dreams! :hugs:

[Sqyd]

"Psychopaths lack empathy and guilt, are egocentric and impulsive, and do not conform to social, moral and legal norms. Psychopaths often follow a distinct set of rules which they have created for themselves rather than following social norms set in place by society. They may appear to be quite normal and often even charming, a state of adaptation that psychiatrist Hervey Cleckley named the "mask of sanity"
(wikipedia - serial killers) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer)

Dexter is a serial killer who kills for self-gratification. He doesn't kill for justice, it's just a byproduct of Harry's training. He himself admits repeatedly that he is a monster. What unique about him is that he is a self-aware monster. In the books he not only kills people, but also vivisects them.

In Six Feet Under Nate had regular conversations with his deceased father. Nate was neither crazy, nor wrecked with guilt.

In case of either of these shows it's up to the viewer whether they see those figures external or internal. I choose to see them internal, but there is no right or wrong way.

The point is that there are a number of possible ways of bringing back Ianto.

1. incorporeal!Ianto - ghost, ghostnotghost, imaginary company, dreamIanto...
2. another!Ianto - clone, alternatrealityIanto...
3. real!Ianto - some sort of resurrection or mucking about with time

They can all end up good or hokey - it's all up to the execution.

What I have problems so far - in fanfics anyway - when the solution is too easy; when Ianto just pops up on the 4th, 5th day, a month later, etc., and that's all. You don't give Ianto a death scene like that and the say, "Hoho, we didn't really mean it." A price has to be paid.

[Mystery01]

Aimee could you please change the title of the thread since everyone has agreed to change topic the title needs to be changed to reflect this.
How about Cloning Ianto and others ways he could be brought back or Ethical Views on Cloning and other ways Ianto to bring hm back
Hmm perhaps you guys can think f a better title?

[Meef]

Aimee could you please change the title of the thread since everyone has agreed to change topic the title needs to be changed to reflect this.
How about Cloning Ianto and others ways he could be brought back or Ethical Views on Cloning and other ways Ianto to bring hm back
Hmm perhaps you guys can think f a better title?

Sorry Msty, title changed.

[Meef]

Dexter's code was learned from Harry, also I believe that Debra is Dexter's link to humanity. I didn't read the books, but at least he still practices his "craft" on people who deserve it. As we see in the series, most of them have no moral code and would or do repeat their crimes. Making them also Serial Killers in a fashion. Dexter may kill for self gratification but it is a little more complicated then that. He kills for his code and he kills others that have hurt or wronged others. He may admit that he is a monster, that just means he still has some humanity. Enough said about Dexter, maybe we should state a topic to discuss that alone.

Me personally as much as I love Ianto's character, there is no way they could bring him back that would cut it. I love COE the way it was. It was by far a brilliant piece of writing.

But the concept of Cloning Ianto in the future would be interesting. We keep looking at the next season as if it will start right after COE. It may start 50 years later, long after Gwen and Jack returns to a new Cardiff and Torchwood.

Jack would have had more then Ianto to have regular conversations with if that were the case. Why start with Ianto after all the others that were in his life. That brings on the question of what makes Ianto more important then others Jack has loved.

[Rootesie]

Have just read through all of this in one go and am intrigued. I find the idea of a cloned Ianto somewhat disturbing and distasteful, for reasons others have gone into, but the idea of using a clone to effect a body swap is intriguing. But then you have the ethical dilemma of creating a clone with the sole purpose of dying to rescue their real and "valid" original. That's not something I would feel comfortable with.

This is a subject close to my heart for personal reasons, as my daughter was pre-natally diagnosed with Down's Syndrome and I was offered a termination because of this. The assumption being, that someone with a less than perfect genetic make-up doesn't necessarily deserve to live. It's a thorny subject with strong feelings on both sides, but as this isn't the subject of the thread I will not go into them.

I just find it fascinating as a subject: what makes us truly human? Could a cloned Ianto, or an AU version ever be the equivalent of the original? How desperate would Jack have to be to resort to this sort of behaviour? Sci-fi is great at asking these sorts of questions, so maybe they should clone Ianto just to examine the issues. That and the chance to see him naked in a vat of goo.... :wink:

[Sqyd]

Cloning is always tricky. Assumed you can just grow a body, in some suspension, not allowing it to develop a consciousness or personality, then "download" one into it? Would that be all right? Probably more acceptable than growing a conscious clone for spare body parts, but somehow it still feels problematic. I can't imagine any way of cloning that's not troubling.

There is a flip side to it too: I've read a story in which Ianto keeps getting reborn into new bodies over and over, thanks to some alientech. In this case the consciousness is always real original Ianto (plus what it picks up in every new life time), but the body is always different.

There is a wonderful Sam the Story Teller fic (http://sam-storyteller.livejournal.com/145378.html) where two years of ianto's memories are removed, so mentally, psychologically back to a point in his life before Canary Wharf. He and Jack meet again, but he is not entirely the same Ianto that Jack knew.

Why Ianto? Maybe because he and Jack are so similar. They are both conmen, they both hide much of themselves, have dark secrets, carefully cultivate a persona they present to the world, they are two sides of the same coin.

[EyeCandy]

1. incorporeal!Ianto - ghost, ghostnotghost, imaginary company, dreamIanto...
2. another!Ianto - clone, alternatrealityIanto...
3. real!Ianto - some sort of resurrection or mucking about with time

They can all end up good or hokey - it's all up to the execution.

What I have problems so far - in fanfics anyway - when the solution is too easy; when Ianto just pops up on the 4th, 5th day, a month later, etc., and that's all. You don't give Ianto a death scene like that and the say, "Hoho, we didn't really mean it." A price has to be paid.

Agreed with the last part, but in this kind of fanfiction (When Ianto came back to life without pay any price), the only thing that we want is our own happy ending to Jack and Ianto, and well everyone tries their best. In my case I'm not a professional writer I think I'm no too bad (In Spanish I'm not too bad, in English I'm the worst! LOL). But TW has a very good writers (Well I still think that RTD is a genius!), I think we have to trust them in case they decide to bring back Ianto in any of the possible ways.

For me a good way could be a ghost, I can't remember if the ghost machine was destroyed but this could be a good way, not to bring him back just to show how Jack feels about Ianto's death and why not he also can saw his grandson as a ghost. Or maybe like RTD did with Rose's dad, bring him back from the parallel world.

[Meef]

Yeah I don't see the whole paying a price thing either. I have three fan fictions going, one was started before COE and like some other writers on the forum, decided that our AU's would stay free of Ianto death. Any new one's I start have become very Jack centric. I still find him to be the focus point of the show and he is a great character to explore.

As far as Jack and Ianto being similar that is a bit of a stretch. Jack knows all of Ianto's secrets, it isn't the same for Ianto. To define that better we would have to know more about Jack's past which has a lot more darkness en mass then Ianto. Maybe Jack can't trust because of the missing two years of memory. So he has a hard time telling people the truth. Those he did tell, left him, Lucia is a good example. I still think that what is not being said is that Jack loves Ianto. Is that enough to bring back ghost Ianto, or imaginary friend Ianto? I don't know.

There was a little gem of a show called Babylon 5 in which they did a Day of the Dead celebration (Mexico) Alien style that allowed you a day with lost loved ones or one you have wronged or any nagging spirit that showed up. Maybe an Alien device could bring Ianto back for a day so there could be closer with Jack and him. And we can move on ourselves.

[Sqyd]

It's two different things bringing back Ianto in the actual tv show, and in fan fiction. At this point I feel very skeptical about the future of TW, but I try to keep an open mind and hope for the best. Within fanfics there are all sorts of possibilities.

It's my own personal preference that you don't get something for nothing. Easy fixes are just not as satisfying for me. I don't even desire a happy ending for the two of them. To be exact, I desire no ending. I would like to see them back together, with the knowledge that Ianto will die, and Jack will move on, one day, just not yet. Leave it open ended. That's just how I roll.

To show really only gave us little glimpses of all the characters, so we extrapolate from that little we have and create our own back stories, personal canons. I strongly disagree with the statement that Jack knows all of Ianto's secrets. Apparently Ianto lied about his father. Such a strange pointless lie, but it reminded me how little we really know. Ianto's father being a master tailor was accepted as canon, because he said it. Then it turns out it was a lie, and it means anything said by any of the characters could be a lie. Only the things we actually saw are true. I also find it extremely intriguing that we know practically nothing about Ianto's mother. I have dark suspicions about it. My Ianto is full of dark secrets even Jack doesn't know. To me Ianto is the more complex, fascinating character. The fact that he is fragile, mortal makes it easier for me to identify with him too.

I agree that Jack loved Ianto, even if he could possibly never say it, though we don't even know that for sure. I believe when in the death scene Jack didn't reciprocate Ianto's "I love you" in kind, it was not because he didn't love him, but because he didn't think he deserved to be loved. That's my take.

Whether if that love is enough for him to bring Ianto back is dependent on your own take on their relationship. I don't see Jack weeping across the universe for him, but I find it feasible he would bring Ianto back if there was a reasonable way to do it. Or maybe it's not his choice to begin with.

I liked B5. The writing was not the best ever, but had interesting characters, a multi-season story arc, and was imaginative, and also sort of romantic. I wondered if Jack would see Ianto in the Darkness every time he died.

[Meef]

Jack never questioned the Master Taylor thing to Ianto's face. It was Gwen that bought it up to Ianto's sister and found out the truth, that doesn't mean that Jack didn't know what Ianto's truths were. He is an ex time agent/con man and most con man, if not all, do a lot of leg work on their targets. I would think that Jack did that. Jack would have had a much greater network of friends and resources to achieve this. Also Ianto would have been limited in finding things out about Jack for much the same reasons. Jack decided what would be known. Maybe he preferred Ianto came clean in his own time if a lie surfaced. That would make sense, Jack never did seem to be phased with others games or lies, look at Tosh, he knew something was up in GBG but he let it happen. That could say something for the way Jack perceives time. That he waits for the answers when he doesn't feel it isn't endangering anyone.

But Ianto was damn clever at hiding Lisa. That is the truth, would love the back story with that someday. That is another way Ianto could come back. We discussed this before, flash backs could work.

I'm wondered if some how Ianto is there at the end of Jack's life.

And I wish Ianto would stop showing up in spell check as being missed spelled!

[Sqyd]

It also doesn't mean he did know. Jack was surprisingly careless or clueless on multiple occasions. He has his shortcomings, and is quite fallible.



And I wish Ianto would stop showing up in spell check as being missed spelled!

Second that!

[Meef]

I think that Jack's shortcomings and failing are part of his con man act. The con man isn't suppose to appear to be smart and clever but charming. Much the same way as a serial killer covers his tracks by appearing to be vulnerable to lure victims with a false sense of security. Ted Bundy would wear a cast sometimes and ask some girl to help him. She would feel sorry for him and a bilge.

If I would to revive Ianto I would use flashbacks definitely. That would allow us to see into Jack and his relationship.

Another way would be that some point down the line in the future, it they start the next season then, I would bring a Ianto looking character maybe his grand nephew to tease Jack with. It wouldn't be Ianto but at least we would have Gareth back.

[Sqyd]

Jack was also fooled by Suzie, repeatedly bullied by Gwen, and the fact that not he went up against an alien with proven history of germ warfare armed with nothing but a handgun and a speech, but didn't have the foresight not to go alone, makes me think that he was short on common sense. I never saw him much as a superhero, but someone far too slapdash, relying far too much on his ability not to stay dead.

But that's just it: We watch the same show, but don't see it the same way. It speaks of the mutability of authorship. Films, tv shows are highly collaborative art forms to begin with; producers, writers, directors, actors all have a hand in shaping the story we get to see, but it does not end with them. The final step in the creative process is the audience. Viewing is not a passive process; we read the narrative, but we also read into it, project ourselves, our knowledge, our history into the narrative. We see the same tv show, but we see it differently. When we start writing fan fiction it goes even further: We appropriate the narrative, spin it in our own way, write into it what we read into it, change it. Then somebody else comes along reads it, take the parts that speak to them, and the process goes on. It's beautifully organic.


PS. I'm pretty sure I'd take GDL in any shape or form in TW 4.

[Meef]

The strange thing is I formed a lot of my theories way before I got in the fan fic writing and before I even joined the forum. I really came into the whole Torchwood Web world as Virgin in dealing with other people's opinions. What I saw was a lot of cat and mouse games of who was going to play out and win with their way of thinking. After a really fierce battle in both Janto and Gwack the war ended with COE. It was like God left the planet and telling us we were wrong and to start again. It was sad to see many just give up like there was nothing worth being a part of.

I refuse to believe that and still believe that it all will service a purpose. That there will be answers.

Until then I have my writing and this Forum with good and happy people who just love the show for what ever the reason.

It is interesting to learn what others think. Those who don't listen to what others say don't understand tolerance. I'm not saying we have to follow what others say, just understand and not judge each other. That is what makes the human race so beautiful, that we can change and it can be for the better.

Oh and I'm still loving this conversation!

Ianto as the new AI for Torchwoods computer?

[Mystery01]

Ianto as the new AI for Torchwoods computer?
Oh I love this idea because it sets up lot's of possibilities for later.
Even the possibility for cloning or
putting his thoughts into an entirely new body one created for the purpose or living but empty of thought.
Hmmm lot's of ethical considerations both ways!!

[Rootesie]

Jack was also fooled by Suzie, repeatedly bullied by Gwen, and the fact that not he went up against an alien with proven history of germ warfare armed with nothing but a handgun and a speech, but didn't have the foresight not to go alone, makes me think that he was short on common sense. I never saw him much as a superhero, but someone far too slapdash, relying far too much on his ability not to stay dead.

But that's just it: We watch the same show, but don't see it the same way. It speaks of the mutability of authorship. Films, tv shows are highly collaborative art forms to begin with; producers, writers, directors, actors all have a hand in shaping the story we get to see, but it does not end with them. The final step in the creative process is the audience. Viewing is not a passive process; we read the narrative, but we also read into it, project ourselves, our knowledge, our history into the narrative. We see the same tv show, but we see it differently. When we start writing fan fiction it goes even further: We appropriate the narrative, spin it in our own way, write into it what we read into it, change it. Then somebody else comes along reads it, take the parts that speak to them, and the process goes on. It's beautifully organic.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with this post. What Sqyd's referring to here is the main thrust of modern literary/cultural criticism. It's a reaction by left-wing academics to the traditional view of the artist as some kind of god, creating a masterpiece with it's meaning encoded within and accessible to those in the know. The more modern view of the audience/readers as active in constructing meaning is even easier to apply to film and tv than to literature. In literature, we all have our own set of assumptions we bring to interpreting the words before us. An author may use a word they think is poignant and beautiful; the reader may find it clicheed and amusing. In the visual media, we not only have our differing interpretations of dialogue, but of all the visuals: body language, facial expressions, costume, composition, movement, etc.

My assessment of Jack is similar to Sqyd's. I've always seen him as fallible, perhaps because I first saw him in the DW series where he was much younger as a character. Also, I prefer him to be that way, as it makes him more human and understandable. I'm quite happy with the idea of him being driven to strange behaviour by Ianto's death.

That said, I want Ianto back in corporeal form. Not a ghost or a memory. If he doesn't have a body, then it's just not exciting to me :wink:

[Meef]

I don't know ghost sex can be very erotic. At least Jack didn't have Ianto stuffed!

I have issues with the whole Suzie thing anyway. But I think she wanted to die so she could be bought back (still don't get the whole story). Also there is this thing with Jack being placed in the past. He may not want to interfere with the time line by stopping occurrences. So he just does what he feels is just enough. It must be hard not to know if that "ant" you step on may some how effect the future you come from. So he just may play it cool.

[Sqyd]

The more modern view of the audience/readers as active in constructing meaning...

Exactly! It's also a more democratic view. The internet also makes this propagation of meaning more democratic.


I've read a story where the TW computer is actually sentient and Ianto's ghost merges with it. It was nicely written.



I refuse to believe that and still believe that it all will service a purpose. That there will be answers.

I'm wary of the future. Season 1 and 2 went down in a familiar pattern. After the ending of S2 the common, and reasonable belief was that S3 would start with finding replacement team member and continuing along the old patterns. And they were toying with our expectations introducing Doctor Patanjali. Then they blew up our expectations along with the hub, killed Ianto, sent Jack offworld, and even Gwen's pregnancy could easily mean that she is off the show (not that I care).

CoE I'm afraid was a turning point. You can tell the most effort in writing went into the dialogs and interactions of government types and Frobisher - more than they spent with cobbling the plot together. RTD's repeated claims that it is a "serious" show don't give me much hope either. Neither do his declaration that he would prefer making the future seasons also in miniseries format. My sick feeling is that he wants to turn the show into "serious" drama full of political allegory.

On the plus side, RTD is not the executive producer any more, and I've read he packed up and left for Hollywood. (Is this true?) So there is a faint hope.

I'm cautiously pessimistic. The problem is that I'm not good at being patient, and season 4 is far away.

Meanwhile, I can't get over Ianto's death. It's totally irrational. I've lost people very close to me, and it ratcheted up my empathy level to death, loss, mortality, but it's still ridiculous.

[gisyl]

Also there is this thing with Jack being placed in the past. He may not want to interfere with the time line by stopping occurrences. So he just does what he feels is just enough. It must be hard not to know if that "ant" you step on may some how effect the future you come from. So he just may play it cool.



I agree with you about Jack.
I also feel that he knows more then he lets on and that because of those timelines he doesn`t always interfere.
The problem I have with the whole Suzie thing is that there wasn`t enough background information to really care about it.
So,I don`t know wether or not Jack knew about her deraiment.
I liked to think he knew or atleast suspected something,because of his way of talking to her in the end

[Rootesie]

I don't know ghost sex can be very erotic. At least Jack didn't have Ianto stuffed!

I suppose a ghost with some *ahem* "solidity" I could cope with. In fact, that could be a solution to Jack's eternal loneliness: a ghost Ianto companion who never ages and can't die as he's already dead. One no one else could see who could help the team out using his invisibility/ability to walk through walls (think Randall and Hopkirk) and grope Jack with no one else noticing :grin: Just better hope Jack doesn't start taking an interest in throwing pots! :laugh:

[Meef]

I believe RTD is still going to write the show, because he stated that season 4 is mostly written, or something to that effect. It is in one of the Topics for COE somewhere, also he stated it at comic con. He can still do Torchwood, he is working for BBCA I believe. That again you would have to find out, my brain was never good at keeping track of others lives.

I hate to say it but I had a feeling that RTD was going to kill Ianto off. It was everywhere in the show. And most Janto fans said I had no right to even think that way. But in the end I was right about it. You can't wholly base a show on the relationship of two of the characters. If anything RTD is experiment, I give him that. That is why I still think that COE was amazing. Look how many different reactions it causes. But in the end it is just a TV show. We have all lost someone in our lives, why should a drama be any different then life. I would say that after seasons 1 and 2 the show was heading into darker territory. So why should we be so surprised over Ianto's death. Was there that much of him that took up our everyday life? I heard people say they could relate to him because they were so much like him. He was a made up character nothing more, it seemed a lot of people put a great deal of effort into a made up character. I not saying I didn't love him, but I didn't live for him, or exist for him. I will miss him if he is truly gone from the show. But I will think it sad that Gareth gave us such a wonderful performance just to have Ianto come back and ruin a beautiful performance.

I suggested the AI because of the show Andromeda. He could become an Android in time or just be there for when Jack needs him to talk to. They may not be physical together as most seem to want, but at least it will show that their relationship was more then just sex.

[Sqyd]

I don't think was CoE was amazing. It had the same problems as the two previous seasons: There were some beautifully written dialogs and scenes, but the plot was wobbly as hell. We were rushed through it so fast that there was not time for it to sink in, but it hasn't stopped bothering me since. Ianto's death scene was heartbreakingly beautiful, but what led to it was frustratingly stupid. Ianto didn't die as a hero, saving the world. He died because three seasoned Torchwood operatives had the collective common sense of a dead rabbit.

I never got the "getting darker" thing from s2. I never found any of it particularly dark. When I think of dark, I think of Carnivále. Now that was dark.

I know perfectly well that TW was never about Janto, but it was one of the many things that made TW a good crack. The high-minded political parable was not. Sorry, but I can watch far better tv dramas for that. The question is whether s4 manages to recapture the spirit of the previous season - that to me means only 1 & 2 - or goes off to a different direction.

There is no reason Jack has to be back for s4. Torchwood is an institute, not Jack.

I'd like to believe that RTD has something up his sleeve to make it work, but I've pretty much lost faith in him.

[Meef]

This is the question that some many seem to evade. It is easy to say a plot is "wobbly as hell" but explain how that is? Show me the disconnections and flaws in the plot.

I never seem to get an answer. And if you think that the show was not so Janto then why be a Hysterical woman? Was it the loss of Ianto that made COE horrid for you? For it seems to be Episode 4 that bought out so much anger and violent thoughts in a fandom. Before that it seem that everyone thought it was wonderful and amazing and RTD and James Moran were brilliant. If Ianto wasn't dead would you feel less negative about the show?

I'm set in my ways and most are when it comes to how they feel about something. If this show is so bad then why do some many hang on to it and complain about?

Torchwood Three is nothing with out Jack. And by no reason for him to come back do you mean because Ianto is dead. And RTD is a writer, it is natural that people loss faith in him. I started to believe in his abilities after COE.

I mean no offense by these questions or comments. They are not meant to be mean or nasty just a person trying to understand another person.

I still am going for the AI Ianto. it would be a great direction.

[Rootesie]

Read the last two posts with interest, and whilst I think this may be a little off topic, wanted to answer Aimee's questions:


Was it the loss of Ianto that made COE horrid for you?

Partly, but not just that. It was so dark in tone, so lacking in humour in that last episode. Frobisher killing his family made me feel physically sick, and then Jack killing his grandson. It was just bleak, distressing, traumatic. I only managed about an hour's sleep the night after seeing it. Not the kind of thing the first two series led us to expect, despite the deaths of Tosh and Owen. At least their deaths acheived something, and were voluntary sacrifices.


If Ianto wasn't dead would you feel less negative about the show?

I'd definitely be looking forward to the next series more. Yup, watching Ianto on screen was one of my favourite things about TW. Whether or not Jack was there too, although I certainly did appreciate the Janto moments. Oh yes...


If this show is so bad then why do some many hang on to it and complain about?

Precisely because the first two series were so fantastic: fun sci-fi adventures with lots of humour and blokes kissing each other. That's my kind of show, Aimee! I feel that whole vibe has been wrecked now. It seems very odd to take a show that's been popular and change the format so drastically. I can only conclude that it was to chase a different audience.

Basically, I'll take Ianto back any way they offer him, but if they don't, I'll still give the next series a chance. But if it's more like CoE and less like the first two series then I probably won't stick with it for long. We'll see...

[Meef]

Yeah but Anna, you won't give up on your amazing fic writing now, would you?

Fair enough, I happen to love COE, just found it refreshing to the goofy way Torchwood was trying to go. I loved the clever concepts and the way they merged together. I really didn't mind it at all. Then again I love when a story is ripped apart so it can be reformed.

It reminds me of Something Borrowed where I thought that Rhys should have killed the Nostrovite. It made no sense for it to be Jack. I kept hoping that Rhys would wake up and it was a dream. And they would have the real wedding. I was going to give up on the show then and there. But Out of the Rain and Adrift made me see something darker. And Exit Wounds was not a fun thing at all, it was really heart breaking on many levels. So I saw the graduation for season 3. Torchwood was not a light show all the time. Not one episode ended with a smile (well Random shoes.). I still don't see where people thought it was light. Most of the first season, such as Cyberwoman and Countrycide were not light at all. The show leaned towards darker concepts.

Tosh didn't die as a hero and Owen's first death was rather preventable. So Why should Ianto have had a heroic death?


We are who we are :hugs:

[Rootesie]

Torchwood was not a light show all the time. Not one episode ended with a smile (well Random shoes.). I still don't see where people thought it was light. Most of the first season, such as Cyberwoman and Countrycide were not light at all. The show leaned towards darker concepts.

Tosh didn't die as a hero and Owen's first death was rather preventable. So Why should Ianto have had a heroic death?

Agreed, I never meant to say TW was light, but just that the darker episodes were leavened with humour. I like my comedy how I like my coffee: black as hell. And I wasn't keen on Tosh and Owen's deaths either, but at least between them they managed to stop a potentially disastrous meltdown at the power station.

Don't worry, I'll keep writing for as long as the inspiration is with me! I'm having far too much fun to stop now.

[Sqyd]

Wibbly-wobbly plot:

1. Ok for starters, there is never a satisfactory reason why they decide to get rid of Jack. He compromised himself in the past dealing with the 456, and it would be a better assumption to make that he could be used again. At the very minimum, it would make sense simply call him in, make him the proposition and detain him if he refuses.

When the story starts Jack has no idea that the government is on the wrong side, he would voluntarily walk into their arms. The whole subterfuge with Petanjali is completely unnecessary. Jack could be taken out of the picture much easier, without the killing Petanjali who could be their plant in Torchwood.

2. Blowing up the hub? Sometimes it's like the government knows a lot about TW, other times they know nothing. The hub is full of alien tech, not to mention the rift manipulator. Blowing up the hub, damaging who knows what alien tech is extremely dangerous, if the government really know anything about TW they wouldn't do it. This action makes absolute no sense.

3. The entire world, every single country, agrees to collect 10% of their children because some bureaucrat from the UK says so? Really? Really, really? In the span of what, two days? Every country? Even Afghanistan, Russia, Irak, Israel? "Hello, this is Mr. Smith from the Prime Minister's office. We have an alien here who says you have to collect 10% of your children and hand them over. Yeah we have a video. Well it's hard to see, the alien is in a glass tank filled with poisonous gas. I'm telling you the truth, scouts honor. Would I ever lie to you?" This part of the plot alone would choke an elephant jumping a shark and consequently sink the Titanic.

Frak, it would take two weeks just to agree on a lunch order. And no offense, but the US politicians taking back seat to the UK? Not going to happen. Yes, we are that fat headed. Our political establishment anyway.

4. There is also a little gem of walking into the Thames House.

Ianto: "Jack, We have to stand up to them."

Rhys: "So let me get this straight, these aliens released a deadly virus in 1965 and didn't provide the anti-virus till they got what they wanted. Should I be worried?"

Jack: "Nah, I'm sure they wouldn't do something similar this time."

Rhys to Ianto: "Shouldn't you take a gas mask, just in case?"

Gwen: "No, Jack will be there, nothing bad can happen."

Ianto: "I know I'm the one who always prepares for any possible contingency, but I can't imagine anything going wrong with a malicious, germ warfare loving alien that uses children as a drug. No, nothing at all."

Jack: "You worry too much Rhys. I know everything. Nothing can surprise me."

Ianto: "Jack, are you ready?'

Jack: "Yeah, I have my speech ready."


5. That bit with Stephen and the sound wave, destroying the alien (aliens?). That was the purest form of unserious junk science. Why not just reverse the polarity flow? Wait, that's just what they did. /facepalm

6. Six billion plot holes, close to a dozen of them just to do with Jack in a concrete block.


Yes, the loss of Ianto did make CoE horrid for me. If he didn't die, it still would have not been a great show though. Too short, too much hot air, too little crack, but at least i would not feel that it ended in a complete void. Just as the last DW special, the one with the bus, was not great, but that's ok, because there will be another one, and things will go on. I know Ten will be gone, and I love Ten, but I loved Nine too, so maybe Eleven will work out too. The show will be the same.

Of course Torchwood Three is nothing without Jack for you, because you zeroed in on Jack. No the reason for him not to come back is not Ianto, but that if it's a "serious" show where everyone dies, than it's also a show where Jack runs away and doesn't come back.

[gisyl]

I`ll be honest,what me always suprises is why Ianto fans think that Ianto is more important for Jack then any other lover Jack had.
He has a daughter with Lucia(I think it was) and the way he was with Estelle and talked about her,showed for me that atleast those 2 were as much as important than Ianto.
Granted we didn`t see much of them but there is still enough information about them to say they made an impact on Jack.
So,i`m really curious what makes Ianto so important?

[Sqyd]

I`ll be honest,what me always suprises is why Ianto fans think that Ianto is more important for Jack then any other lover Jack had.
He has a daughter with Lucia(I think it was) and the way he was with Estelle and talked about her,showed for me that atleast those 2 were as much as important than Ianto.
Granted we didn`t see much of them but there is still enough information about them to say they made an impact on Jack.
So,i`m really curious what makes Ianto so important?

It's not that he is more important to Jack. He is more important to us. It's a tv show, and we got enough paticulars to care about Ianto, but Lucia, Estelle were never more than background detail.

[Meef]

I`ll be honest,what me always suprises is why Ianto fans think that Ianto is more important for Jack then any other lover Jack had.
He has a daughter with Lucia(I think it was) and the way he was with Estelle and talked about her,showed for me that atleast those 2 were as much as important than Ianto.
Granted we didn`t see much of them but there is still enough information about them to say they made an impact on Jack.
So,i`m really curious what makes Ianto so important?

It's not that he is more important to Jack. He is more important to us. It's a tv show, and we got enough paticulars to care about Ianto, but Lucia, Estelle were never more than background detail.

I think she is referring to Jack as a character and who in his heart is important. Ianto is not that important to all of us. He was a great character. Like I said if he came back that is great, but I will not let his return/ no return ruin any further Torchwood for me. And I will defend Jack. He is the focal point, with out his existence I doubt RTD would have even written the spin off.

It is time to take a deep breath and relax a bit. Let return to how we would bring Ianto back with out it seeming tacky.

[gisyl]

t's not that he is more important to Jack. He is more important to us. It's a tv show, and we got enough paticulars to care about Ianto, but Lucia, Estelle were never more than background detail.

I do see some fans say(not all) say that Ianto was the most important person Jack has ever had,which is why I ask.
Just cusiosity,nothing more or anything judgemental.

ETA: that is what I meant,meef,thanks

It has to do with how Ianto could or would comeback.
Because if he does come back,he never can comeback as the person he was.
There is too much happend for that.
I would like to see him comeback as someone maybe on the sideway of Torchwood but not involved anymore.

[EyeCandy]

I`ll be honest,what me always suprises is why Ianto fans think that Ianto is more important for Jack then any other lover Jack had.
He has a daughter with Lucia(I think it was) and the way he was with Estelle and talked about her,showed for me that atleast those 2 were as much as important than Ianto.
Granted we didn`t see much of them but there is still enough information about them to say they made an impact on Jack.
So,i`m really curious what makes Ianto so important?

It's not that he is more important to Jack. He is more important to us. It's a tv show, and we got enough paticulars to care about Ianto, but Lucia, Estelle were never more than background detail.

I think she is referring to Jack as a character and who in his heart is important. Ianto is not that important to all of us. He was a great character. Like I said if he came back that is great, but I will not let his return/ no return ruin any further Torchwood for me. And I will defend Jack. He is the focal point, with out his existence I doubt RTD would have even written the spin off.

It is time to take a deep breath and relax a bit. Let return to how we would bring Ianto back with out it seeming tacky.

And more surprises me how Gwen has more time in front of the camera than Jack, and how she gets the control of Torchwood almost since her first day.

There are a different points of view. Everyone defends their favourite character of course, but being honest (And not because I don't like Gwen), sometimes I wonder who is the real boss (and principal character) of Torchwood. I mean I guess that Torchwood spin off was created for Jack (and John Barrowman, but correct me if I'm wrong), and yeah Gwen is a principal character, but not as Jack... I make sense?.

I mean, yeah she introduces us to the Torchwood series, but the original Torchwood member (the boss), is Jack... In my opinion all the character were essential for the serie, all of them give to the serie something!

And about Ianto: If he's coming back (in any of the ways mentioned by the fans), I hope the writers make a good work, I absolutely want Ianto (and Gareth), back to Torchwood.

[Sqyd]

And I will defend Jack. He is the focal point, with out his existence I doubt RTD would have even written the spin off.

I agree that Torchwood could have been impossible without Jack as the series used to be. However with CoE it started taking a very sharp turn, and if it is going to the direction where I think it's going, Jack is not necessary any more. There isn't even a Torchwood Three left. People assume it will be rebuilt, but I'm pretty convinced it won't be.

Don't misunderstand me: I love Jack, and love JB. He was the main reason I started watching TW on the first place. I just ended up finding Ianto the most intriguing character, and their relationship the most pleasant surprise of the show, even though it was a minor thread.

By all likelihood Ianto won't return, but Jack will - unless JB gets a spot on Desperate Housewives. However I believe that at this point Jack could be written out of the show, and that RTD is capable of it.

As for Ianto being more important than others in Jack's life: We don't know if he is, but we also don't know if he isn't. There is simply not enough information to make that determination. From a purely narrative point of view he was the one who was featured most prominently. More importantly, Ianto Jones' hypothetical, and highly improbably return would not have to depend on his relative importance to Jack.

I will give season 4 a chance - it's not impossible that it'll be worth it, it might even be brilliant. I just won't hold my breath, and won't keep hanging on if it's not.

[Sqyd]

Undead Cyber Ianto. (http://angstslashhope.livejournal.com/1562895.html)

[Meef]

Skimmed throught it between sneezing. I will have to go read it later. I have this bitch of a cold. :sad:

[gisyl]

More importantly, Ianto Jones' hypothetical, and highly improbably return would not have to depend on his relative importance to Jack.
I agree with you on this.
If he does come back in some form,I want him to be his own character,but I fear that he won`t be that.
Which is why I would like to see him as someone outside of Torchwood but still know enough of Torchwood.

[Sqyd]

Skimmed throught it between sneezing. I will have to go read it later. I have this bitch of a cold. :sad:

Chamomile tea, rest. It must be pretty wintery over there.


So... Idea #1:

Ianto bathed in rift radiation, Jack's DNA on his lips, get somehow copied into Jack's wrist strap at the moment of explosion, and lays dormant there for a while, till he gets activated and becomes Jack's personal AI. Pretty far fetched, I know.

Idea #2:

Being aware of his mortality, Ianto had started growing his own clone. Fill in the details.

Idea #3:

Gwen's baby is Ianto 2.0

[Rootesie]

I think I'll have to vote for an alternate universe Ianto. It could lead to some interesting plot developments, especially if he doesn't take to Jack right away (or at all).

I know someone elsewhere has pointed out that the Doctor closed the doors between the different parallel worlds, but I'm sure that there could be some explanation for a Ianto finding his way through. Perhaps he could fall through the rift and end up in our Cardiff.

[Sqyd]

The 'final' things that the Doctor does tend not to be so 'final' usually. I read one fic where a "rift quake" sucks alternate reality Ianto into this one.

[anlisch]

I think I'll have to vote for an alternate universe Ianto. It could lead to some interesting plot developments, especially if he doesn't take to Jack right away (or at all).

I know someone elsewhere has pointed out that the Doctor closed the doors between the different parallel worlds, but I'm sure that there could be some explanation for a Ianto finding his way through. Perhaps he could fall through the rift and end up in our Cardiff.

There is more than one alternate universe. That's the beauty of this idea.

(Sorry to get into this discussion like this, but I find all your ideas fascinating)

[anlisch]

I`ll be honest,what me always suprises is why Ianto fans think that Ianto is more important for Jack then any other lover Jack had.
He has a daughter with Lucia(I think it was) and the way he was with Estelle and talked about her,showed for me that atleast those 2 were as much as important than Ianto.
Granted we didn`t see much of them but there is still enough information about them to say they made an impact on Jack.
So,i`m really curious what makes Ianto so important?

I don't think he is more important, if you look at the absolute value for all times, we don't know anything about that. I think, Ianto may be the most important in this time, just because it is right now. The breakup with Lucia seamed to be quite bitter, and Jack's breakup with Estelle was initialised by himself. They are not his actual love interests, but fond (Estelle) and slightly bitter (Lucia) memories of love.
I don't think, that Ianto will be anything else (I hope he is a fond memory) in 50 years. But just now it must hurt more than his breakups with both women hurt now.

[Rootesie]

I`ll be honest,what me always suprises is why Ianto fans think that Ianto is more important for Jack then any other lover Jack had.
He has a daughter with Lucia(I think it was) and the way he was with Estelle and talked about her,showed for me that atleast those 2 were as much as important than Ianto.
Granted we didn`t see much of them but there is still enough information about them to say they made an impact on Jack.
So,i`m really curious what makes Ianto so important?

I don't think he is more important, if you look at the absolute value for all times, we don't know anything about that. I think, Ianto may be the most important in this time, just because it is right now. The breakup with Lucia seamed to be quite bitter, and Jack's breakup with Estelle was initialised by himself. They are not his actual love interests, but fond (Estelle) and slightly bitter (Lucia) memories of love.
I don't think, that Ianto will be anything else (I hope he is a fond memory) in 50 years. But just now it must hurt more than his breakups with both women hurt now.

My interpretation of why Ianto might be more important to Jack than previous lovers, is that he is the first person Jack has been involved with since the "year that never was", when he realised that the Doctor didn't feel the same way about him. I think he had been holding part of himself back for the Doctor all that time, but once he realised this was hopeless he was able to move on emotionally. It's significant that he asks Ianto out after getting back. It could be that the capacity he has for obsessional behaviour (what is waiting in Cardiff for over a hundred years, keeping a hand in a jar and clinging onto the outside of a departing TARDIS if not obsessional) could be tranferred over to Ianto, and result in similarly odd behaviours. We are simply not given enough of an insight into Jack's thought processes to know, but it's an interpretation that I like for my own, Ianto obsessed, reasons.

[Meef]

I don't agree with the Doctor obsession. Jack was aware of the fact that Rose and the Doctor had something there. I think he my have tried with the Doctor but the Doctor didn't respond to it. I find it hard to see Jack as a love sick puppy with anyone. Nor with obsessional behaviour, that is not Jack. He went after the Doctor at first I think because he felt abandoned, being left behind at the game station and suddenly alive. He needed answers and those increased when he realized he couldn't die. The Doctor was the only one who would have known what happened to him. So it was more out of a need for knowledge then love. Not saying he didn't love the Doctor in some way. It just wasn't sexual.

[Rootesie]

No, I didn't necessarily mean it was sexual. More like hero worship, perhaps, but definitely love of some sort. And I still think spending a century in Cardiff waiting for someone to come back is a little extreme! Have you ever been to Wales? I love the place, but not sure I'd want to spend that long there when there's a whole world to explore.

[Meef]

No, I didn't necessarily mean it was sexual. More like hero worship, perhaps, but definitely love of some sort. And I still think spending a century in Cardiff waiting for someone to come back is a little extreme! Have you ever been to Wales? I love the place, but not sure I'd want to spend that long there when there's a whole world to explore.

:lol2: just PMS

[tracyann45]

where do I start, have only just read all the lovely comments people on here have wrote,
well you are all entitled to your own thought's about clonig, :search:
but in my honest opinion, could Jack actually love ianto the same if he was cloned,
I dont think so, he just wouldnt, :dontknow:
he could lust after the clone, but love the clone, no way. :dontknow:
but hey thats just my opinion, so no bad remarks , Thank you :rolleyes:

[Catmoon3]

For it seems to be Episode 4 that bought out so much anger and violent thoughts in a fandom. Before that it seem that everyone thought it was wonderful and amazing and RTD and James Moran were brilliant.

Well, speaking just for myself and not as a long time fan -- since CoE was the very first Torchwood I've ever seen. I had nothing personally invested in TW at that point, didn't even know much about the characters. I was initially blown away by CoE and thought it was brilliant... but then as it went on I realized that I was being distracted by all the action, explosions, shocking themes, etc., so that I didn't notice the poor writing and major plot holes. Once the brain was no longer being kept busy... I was astounded at the sheer number of them. That could very well be what others experienced as well, just took a few days to sink in. Just long enough to kill off Ianto (hmm...which possibly shocked the audience out of their violence-induced daze).

But [shrug] this is TV, after all. If the Suits decide it's a wise marketing move to bring back Ianto, I doubt they'll care very much about how he's revived, whether it's believable or not. They'll just wave a hand and say "it's science fiction, just bring him back." I'm not sure if I care how he's brought back. If they killed him off stupidly, I can't really complain much about bringing him back stupidly. Just IMHO and all that.

[Catmoon3]

I do see some fans say(not all) say that Ianto was the most important person Jack has ever had,which is why I ask.

Could be because RTD himself hinted at it quite strongely. He said in interviews that he had to kill off Ianto because only his loss would break Jack to the point of sacrificing his grandson and leaving Earth. Since no one else he's lost has destroyed him that much we've seen, it's pretty strong evidence.

[Meef]

For it seems to be Episode 4 that bought out so much anger and violent thoughts in a fandom. Before that it seem that everyone thought it was wonderful and amazing and RTD and James Moran were brilliant.

Well, speaking just for myself and not as a long time fan -- since CoE was the very first Torchwood I've ever seen. I had nothing personally invested in TW at that point, didn't even know much about the characters. I was initially blown away by CoE and thought it was brilliant... but then as it went on I realized that I was being distracted by all the action, explosions, shocking themes, etc., so that I didn't notice the poor writing and major plot holes. Once the brain was no longer being kept busy... I was astounded at the sheer number of them. That could very well be what others experienced as well, just took a few days to sink in. Just long enough to kill off Ianto (hmm...which possibly shocked the audience out of their violence-induced daze).

But [shrug] this is TV, after all. If the Suits decide it's a wise marketing move to bring back Ianto, I doubt they'll care very much about how he's revived, whether it's believable or not. They'll just wave a hand and say "it's science fiction, just bring him back." I'm not sure if I care how he's brought back. If they killed him off stupidly, I can't really complain much about bringing him back stupidly. Just IMHO and all that.

I just want to say I love your straight forwardness. It is nice to see that. I haven't gone back to watch for plot holes yet. I will someday I guess. The writing as is even with the plot holes that I noticed were less then that of both series one and two so I really thought that the writing was greatly improved.

I think RTD was referring to breaking Jack so they could develop his character more. I like when they rebuild a character. It was one of the reasons I liked B5 because the characters changed with each event in their lives. Ianto was important to Jack but he may not have been the only one, he was at that time and place, yes. But if it had been Gwen I think Jack would have acted the same. The two of them were extremely important to Jack. So it is hard to say either way.

Hence why I love this show, there is no right way for anything. :smile:

[gisyl]

Could be because RTD himself hinted at it quite strongely. He said in interviews that he had to kill off Ianto because only his loss would break Jack to the point of sacrificing his grandson and leaving Earth. Since no one else he's lost has destroyed him that much we've seen, it's pretty strong evidence.
Could be,but I think that he said that more because Jack and Ianto were in a relationship at that point in time,so at that point Ianto was important for him.
But in the overall sense I think Ianto ment as much to him as estelle for example.


ell you are all entitled to your own thought's about clonig, :search:
but in my honest opinion, could Jack actually love ianto the same if he was cloned,
I dont think so, he just wouldnt, :dontknow:
he could lust after the clone, but love the clone, no way.

I think you raise a good point here.
How would Jack react to a clone,especially if he does come back from getting his head back?
I have a feeling that he wouldn`t be so happy,more so I think he would be suspescions.

[Catmoon3]

Could be,but I think that he said that more because Jack and Ianto were in a relationship at that point in time,so at that point Ianto was important for him.
But in the overall sense I think Ianto ment as much to him as estelle for example.

That's the tragedy of Captain Jack of course (and his relationship with Ianto). Everyone he loves is only his "true love" for a few decades if they're lucky -- a few years if not. They die and he must move on to someone else and his feelings for them will fade with time. Some people like tragedy in their love stories and others want happy endings or at least want to believe in that soulmate ideal. That's a divide I've seen in other shows' fandoms as well, not unique to TW. We all interpret the charcter's and their relationships in our own unique ways -- that's half the fun of it!

What was the point of Ianto's life? Is he only important because he was important to Jack? I'd love for them to bring Ianto back, and being this is science fiction there's a zillion ways they could do it. Heck, I'd even take Ianto coming back only to kick Jack to the kerb. :wink: (not that I think he ever would, he was devoted to Jack). Funny how we're talking about Ianto, and his resurrection, yet keep coming back to Jack. Poor Jack lost his lover. We need to get Ianto back for Jack. This is a young, heroic man, who died before his time, while bravely facing a terrible enemy to save the Earth and its children (even if it was a stupid move). He had so much potential, and could have made so many more, important contributions to the world. A wasted talent. Instead of asking if Jack could love a clone of Ianto, it would be interesting to speculate on what Ianto would want...

PS: And in that vein... what if it was Gwen who were to clone (or in another manner) bring back Ianto? She's the main character now that Jack left Earth. Maybe she decides she's not going to lose yet another team member. She's totally alone now, the only member of Torchwood left now that Jack ran away. I'm sure RTD would like that, and it would get us Ianto back... And I would think it would certainly redeem her, for the fans who dislike her... Yeah, I'm thinking that would be brilliant. :wink:

[Rootesie]

I'm intrigued by Catmoon's post. I think what Ianto would want would differ hugely according to how he was brought back. If we get back "our" Ianto, rescued somehow, then no problems, he should be fairly content. But an AU Ianto? Who knows how he would take it? A ghost Ianto with no corporeal form? I imagine that would be an angst ridden experience for him, because he'd have to watch Jack get into other relationships (I can't imagine Jack staying celibate, somehow) A clone would be anyone's guess. We are so shaped by our experiences, that unless he was somehow programmed with all of Ianto's memories and behaviours, he could turn out very differently.

I think all of these questions are what sci-fi is good at dealing with, so I hope they do bring him back if only to explore some of them...

[Catmoon3]

I'm intrigued by Catmoon's post. I think what Ianto would want would differ hugely according to how he was brought back. If we get back "our" Ianto, rescued somehow, then no problems, he should be fairly content. But an AU Ianto? Who knows how he would take it? A ghost Ianto with no corporeal form? I imagine that would be an angst ridden experience for him, because he'd have to watch Jack get into other relationships (I can't imagine Jack staying celibate, somehow) A clone would be anyone's guess. We are so shaped by our experiences, that unless he was somehow programmed with all of Ianto's memories and behaviours, he could turn out very differently.

And of course this is the perfect place to mention the amazing fic, "Parallel Loves" by Rootsie, which does a lovely job of exploring this very topic. :yes: How would a Ianto from another universe deal with being thrust into this universe as a replacement. If you haven't read it, go now! :wink:

Ah, but would a rescued Ianto be content with it? (yes depending on how he was rescued). I dealt with that a bit in a short story I wrote, with the idea that there would be some survivor's guilt. If everyone else at Thames House died except him, and especially if Jack's son wasn't saved. Then there's Tosh and Owen who weren't as lucky... I could definitely see angst and soul searching as he came to terms with his own rescue.

[Sqyd]

There is a nice meta article (http://solitary-summer.livejournal.com/454974.html?format=light) about the Jack/Ianto relationship. Ianto's importance to Jack is not simply just romantic, but the changes he effected in Jack.

***************

Rootsie needs to write faster. :clapper:

I totally agree that Ianto's emotional reaction would have to depend on how he was brought back, and there are so many possibilities.

Blade Runner implied that being human is closely related to memories. What if Ianto's memories found their way into another body, maybe one where the memories got lost? It would be Ianto with a different body, Ianto's memories, and a personality that wouldn't entirely be Ianto.

[Rootesie]

Thanks for the plug, Catmoon! And Sqyd, I'm writing as much as I can manage at the moment, which isn't much I agree. Did just post the next chapter, though!

Ianto's memories in someone else's body. No sir, I don't like it. May as well just have a brand new character. Ianto isn't Ianto without the GDL vehicle. However, from a purely sci-fi pov, that could be interesting. Would be most odd to find yourself in a new body. I suppose the closest they got to that in canon (sorry for the dirty word, Aimee!) was the novel Almost Perfect. Ianto was quite distressed for a few days, then seemed to rather enjoy trying on women's clothes. I suppose he had the promise from Jack that they would get him his old body back, so if there was no chance of that, the angst would be somewhat more prolonged.

[Sqyd]

I differentiate between fanfic and tv. In the latter Ianto is unlikely to return, but if he did, yes, it would have to be GDL. In fanfic, on the other hand... Since as a reader you can project, see inside the character, you could see your Ianto. Since personality is not defined by memories alone, it would be not just a simple body swap alone. The idea is disturbing, but intriguing too.

[gisyl]

We need to get Ianto back for Jack. This is a young, heroic man, who died before his time, while bravely facing a terrible enemy to save the Earth and its children (even if it was a stupid move). He had so much potential, and could have made so many more, important contributions to the world. A wasted talent. Instead of asking if Jack could love a clone of Ianto, it would be interesting to speculate on what Ianto would want...
So,did Owen and Tosh,and what about Stephan,he was even younger then the others.

I get the feeling that if you ask Ianto if he wanted to come back when he died,he would say no to that.
Simply because he knows that if he does comeback,it will never be the same.
Plus what about all his memories he has,not only from the 456 but also from canary warf.
If Ianto comes back and you erase those then it isn`t Ianto