CoE declassified - my reaction.

[Banshee]

So, I've been watching, and rewatching, and all that, because that is how I cope with things that upset me (sometimes... some other times, I just run away and pretend they don't exist. Yeah. Coherent, me. I know. ) And I've been ranting. A bit. Well, a lot, to be honest. And I just thought that well, maybe some of you may be interested in discussing my rantings.

This was originally posted in two parts in my livejournal: Part 1 (http://kelticbanshee.livejournal.com/16193.html) and more coherent part 2 (http://kelticbanshee.livejournal.com/16502.html), in case you want to comment over there.

Now, for those of you over here at TWF:

Part 1
Well...
Three things I will say...


We still don't know for certain whether the decision to kill off Ianto came from the writers wanting him dead, from Gareth David-Lloyd wanting to move on, or a mixture of both. And I'm guessing we never will, because if we ever find out, goodness help whoever triggered all of this.
They had to go and choose "Goodbye my lover" as background music when talking about Ianto's death... as if that song didn't already make me cry on its own.
Is it just me that thinks John Barrowman's voice breaks a little when he's talking about Ianto's death? Soppy, I know, but hey, if you are expecting coherence you are in the wrong place, I'm not coherent at the moment.


Can't really believe I am this upset about what is, at the end of the day, a TV show and ficitional characters (kudos to the writers for making me care so much), but I am. There's already talk of what, if anything, could be of season four, and, to be honest, whatever they make of it, if anything, I doubt it will be as emotionally gripping as the Torchwood I loved from episode one. No doubt if there is a season four it could be good scifi. But I wasn't in it for the scifi only. I love Torchwood for being different, for having human characters, for breaking the mold and the norm and giving me hope that a lot of things can change in this fucking world. And I very much doubt that could come out of anything that happens after this.

And the most annoying thing is, I can't even convince myself to stop thinking about it and pretend it never happened, and stick to the show up to CoE ep 3, which had me high and elated and wanting more. And the whole "thank goodness for small mercies" section in my head is currently pretty low on small mercies to be grateful for (Jack leaving, Ianto not dying alone - which somehow I've always thought was his greatest fear, and Andy getting into the fray in the last episode) is not much
Right... that's it from me at the moment...

And a much longer part 2
So, yeah, I posted something about the declassified here, yesterday. Then I rewatched the whole thing. I mean, the five episodes, and the Declassified. No, I'm not entirely sure why I did it, but I think it was something to do with biting the bullet and rewatching it, so it won't haunt me forevermore, and also with wanting to see Ianto alive again, and kicking ass and being his usual lovable self. So, yeah, I rewatched.

And something struck me when watching the declassified, other than the confirmation that yes, as far as I'm concerned, John Barrowman's voice breaks a little when he talks about Ianto' death, and that the very little time Gareth actually gets points me back to the whole "Gareth is not a happy bunny and has been biting his tongue for a long time, and I'm hoping he'll stop soon and we'll get a piece of his mind". Basically, as far as I am concerned, RTD's reasoning for killing Ianto sucks. Big time. Either he doesn't know his own characters, or the characters he's put on screen have nothing to do with what he had in his head.

Because, basically, his reasoning is that Jack sacrifices Steven because, after Ianto's death, he goes back to being the dark sod he can be, and he wouldn't have done it before Ianto's death. And I say, very loudly, bollocks. We know Jack has always been a dark sod, even in his best times, and Ianto knows it. Jack has sacrificed kids to save the planet before, he would do it again even if it means his own flesh and blood. And Ianto has always been aware of this, as pointed out by things like the fact that he was the only one of the team talking to him after Small Worlds (as detailed in the Captain's Blog on BBCAmerica website, written by the wonderful James Moran to whom I will ever be grateful for the "beans conversation), or the conversation they have on episode four:

Ianto: "This must have been eating away at you. Why didn't you tell me? I could have helped"
Jack: "No you coulnd't"
Ianto: "I tell you everything"
Jack: "Yes, so tell me, what should I have done"
Ianto: "Stand up to them. the Jack I know would have stood up to them. I've only just scratched the surface, haven't I?"
Jack: "Ianto, that's all there is"
Ianto: "No, you pretend that's all there is."
Jack: "I've lived a long time, I've done a lot of things. I've got to go, I won't be long"
Ianto: "You're doing it again. Speak to me, Jack. Where are you going?"
Jack: "To call Frobisher. I can't make the call from here cos they'll be able to trace it, is that ok?"
Ianto: "You are the boss."
Jack: "And just so you know I have a daughter called Alice and a grandson call Steven and Frobisher took them hostage yesterday."

Ianto doesn't question Jack's decisions, because he knows Jack has to make the tough decisions. He doesn't run away from him for sometimes being a monster. He supports him. He's an anchor for Jack, reminding him of his own humanity. Jack can be Jack with Ianto, instead of Captain Harkness.

So, in this light, let' take a look at the scene where Jack chooses to sacrifice his own grandson to save the planet. On the one side, Alice, apealing to him on a persona level, calling him "dad". On the other side, Johnson, appealing to the Captain, reminding him they have no time. In that context, every time we have seen Jack in that situation, Jack has always been Captain Harkness, bitten the bullet, done what had to be done, because someone has to. He did it in Small Worlds. He did it in Greeks Bearing Gifts, killing Mary because she was a threat. He did it in Countricide, bringing back the dark side of his past, the torturer, in order to find out what the hell is going on. He did it back in 1965, and that is why started this whole bloody mess in the first place. And I'm bloody too upset to remember all the instances, but he's done it before.

So, to tell me, us, the fandom, that Captain Harkness wouldn't have sacrifice his grandson in order to save the world if Ianto hadn't died "twenty minutes" before, to me, is bollocks. Jack, like the Doctor, will do what needs doing. And hate himself for it afterwards.

So, I would like to know how many of you can see the following happening (and not only because it means Ianto is alive). Ianto doesn't die at the end of Day4. Ianto is with Jack in the room when Jack makes the decision, one step behind him, as he always is, supporting, understanding what is going through Jack's head, why he has to be Captain Harkness. And as Jack hits the last key, Ianto puts a hand on Jack's shoulder, or one of those little touches he does, and just gives Jack an anchor, a safe harbour, if and when he wants to take it.

The other bit of reasoning that I got from RTD in the declassified is that it is because of Ianto's and Steve's death, and the destruction of Torchwood, and all that happens, that Jack takes to the stars. To me that implies that "if Ianto had been alive he would still have tied Jack to Earth, and Jack wouldn't have left". And I have to concentrate very hard not to *headdesk* at that.

So, once again, hands up those of you that can see this happening, and not only because it means Ianto is alive. After everything that happens, Ianto and Jack have one of these conversations they normally have, where they don't really talk that much but a lot is said between the lines. Jack says he can't stand Earth, that it feels like a graveyard, that he feels like he can't breathe on Earth. Ianto pauses, considers, nods slightly, and knows that Jack is going to leave. And he's understanding enough to know that chaining Jack to Earth and not letting him leave would not be particularly useful or good for Jack. So there's one of those "just make sure you come back. When you are ready.", a little smile, a hug, a "how do you know what I need before I actually do, Ianto?" look from Jack to Ianto, a resigned pursing of lips on Ianto's part, and an attempt at wittiness "I don't suppose that wriststrap of yours is any good for intergallactic calls, is it, Jack?" Jack leaves, to heal on his own, because sometimes he needs that, but knowing there is a safe harbour for him to return to when he needs to.

Right, so, I know that goodbye scene I just outlined is a bit cheesy and soppy, but *shrugs* I'm just doing my best here, I'm sure you get my idea.

The thing is, to me, Ianto's death was not necessary to bring out the darker Jack, or to have him take to the stars. The only thing it really enables and triggers is a broken, desperate, defeated Jack, who probably offed himself qute a few times between disappearing after sacrificing Steven and disappearing into space in the last scene, and probably will off himself quite a few more times before he comes to terms with things. A Jack that will keep himself away from everybody, because he will convince himself that all he leaves in his wake is broken lives and deaths, without any bright spark in the dark to make it not worth it, but bearable. So, other than torturing Jack and cutting his last conections to Earth, making his return to Earch within Gwen's lifetime quite unlikely, killing Ianto achieves, as far as I am concerned, nothing.

So, yeah. My two cents of thought on why killing Ianto wasn't necessary for the story (and I am not the only one: check out loveslashangst (http://www.torchwoodforum.co.uk/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4697)'s "CoE Days 4 and 5 in 15 minutes (http://loveslashangst.livejournal.com/50094.html)"). Add to that the official announcement that RTD is moving on to America, and I can only come to one conclusion: "There are my toys and I'm not letting anybody play with them, I'll break them before I let you put your hands on them."

Edited to add: I forgot to say, given the rumours about the last two Tenant episodes of Doctor Who, that if Jack is in them, and the Doctor magically waves his hand and makes it all better for Jack, I'm really going to explode, unless he does so by reverting the events of CoE and giving us a wonderful Doctor ex Machina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deux_ex_machina). Because I don't think Jack will heal so easily from this. And I'm not being a romantic fluffy bunny thinking about true love, and never loving again. I've been hit quite hard in my life and I know that life is not a bloody romantic comedy. But I've also learnt something about human nature, and about the need to heal after a loss, and Jack in CoE loses everything, including some, if not all, of the self-respect he still had. So I know that no amount of magic wand waving and the likes could heal him that easily. So I hope, if Jack is in DW, he's not a happy bunny, and the Doctor doesn't magically heal him. Because if that happens... well, for one, ti would go against everything RTD said about why things happened in CoE, and prove my point even more.

So, what do you faithful fans think?

*ducks from possible flying objects thrown her way*

[emz.buckley]

Personally speaking i think both John and Gareth are pissed as hell over this. Its not fair to the fans, not only because you have lost another member but also because janto is so well loved by the fans, which they know because of being at the conventions. I think john is livid because he has taken away the gay relationship and kept the straight one, which as a proud and out there gay man, must really hack you off. I think Gareth thinks that he hasn't been treated fairly, which he hasn't and john agrees with him. It almost feels like they are and we are being punished for liking and loving something, and RTD did it so he could get what he wanted. People didn't like what he wanted so he threw his toys out of the pram and did this to say, its my show and you will like what i like. I get the feeling that both John and Gareth were promised things for this season, like more background of characters and scenes, etc, and they got screwed. I have never had the feeling that Gareth wanted to leave and he was written out for no reason. Does make you wonder about john's reaction to it, based on the actual ending of the series?

The thing that has come across from this is the fact that there was no point to Ianto's death and RTD did it because he could, not because it made sense or had anything to do with the actual plot. Jack could of still been broken with Ianto being alive, it didn't have to have both ianto and stephen dying to break him. Sacrificing Stephen would have been enough but no, they went for the overkill. Sad really.

[Banshee]

Personally speaking i think both John and Gareth are pissed as hell over this.

I have my own list of conspiracy theories about what may, might anc could have happened to trigger Ianto's death, particularly the way it unravelled. But then again, there are only that, conspiracy theories. I need five minutes off the record with a lot of people to confirm them!


I get the feeling that both John and Gareth were promised things for this season, like more background of characters and scenes, etc, and they got screwed. I have never had the feeling that Gareth wanted to leave and he was written out for no reason. Does make you wonder about john's reaction to it, based on the actual ending of the series?

Good summary of one of my theories. There's something rotten in Denmark, to quote Shakespeare. I just wish I could find out what.


The thing that has come across from this is the fact that there was no point to Ianto's death and RTD did it because he could, not because it made sense or had anything to do with the actual plot. Jack could of still been broken with Ianto being alive, it didn't have to have both ianto and stephen dying to break him. Sacrificing Stephen would have been enough but no, they went for the overkill. Sad really.

Yep. My point precisely.

[xvoguex]

I haven't watched declassified yet but whated to agree on a couple of points. Mainly over JB reaction to this series


Personally speaking i think both John and Gareth are pissed as hell over this.


Maybe thats why Gareth looked pissed off in the promo pictures



The thing that has come across from this is the fact that there was no point to Ianto's death and RTD did it because he could, not because it made sense or had anything to do with the actual plot. Jack could of still been broken with Ianto being alive, it didn't have to have both ianto and stephen dying to break him. Sacrificing Stephen would have been enough but no, they went for the overkill. Sad really.


I think you hit the nail on the head. They did go for overkill

[cherry]

For me it went over board when they killed off Owen and Tosh...im not sure how things will be the same again, they cant can they.

[Banshee]

For me it went over board when they killed off Owen and Tosh...im not sure how things will be the same again, they cant can they.

Yep, that's the thing, I don't think they want things to be the same any more. If Torchwood comes back, it is going to be a very different beast altogether. And I'm not sure all change is for the better.

[Chelle]

I finally watched Declassified this morning. It was very interesting to see how it all came about, and I was just about holding it together until they started on about Ianto's death, and then played Goodbye My Lover by James Blunt whilst they showed bits with Ianto and Jack in over previous series episodes. God that was bloody sad! And then the bit with Gwen crying at the end. Jesus, I was going to watch CoE again tonight but will leave it another week I think.

xxx

[owlpost1992]

I got talking to a friend and she had the interesting view that Ianto's death was a sacrifice because it was a war and sacrifices had to be made. Gwen didn't/couldn't lose anything because as a pregnant woman she would be the light beaming out of something so tragic and dark.

Personally, I still am mad Gwen never sacrificed anything while Ianto and Jack made the ultimate sacrifices.

As for saying Steven is like Jasmin, they aren't the same. Jasmin wanted to go with the fairies where she was loved and loved, Steven was dragged from his mother and put through the utmost terror before dying. They did a similar thing but are the not the same.

[ElectroxGirl]

You can't say Gwen lost nothing. One of her best friends died (after two already dying) and another one left the planet! That is enough.

[nightowl]

She also lost her faith in what they did. When you hear what she says about Torchwood in the car, and that she was actually considering an abortion, that shows how far she is from the young PC who first joined the group.

She has been completely demoralized by what happened. She certainly wasn't unscathed by it at all.

And the fact that she did walk out the other side is something that Jack can hold onto. The only bit of shining hope in all of the grief he endured. Maybe it will lead him back onto the path of forgiving himself again.

[owlpost1992]

Would you consider having a child knowing that in the years to come they will be given up to a monstrous alien as a form of drugs? I would have an abortion too. Also she quickly changed her mind by the time they entered the abandoned warehouse.

Ianto survived the trauma of Carny Wharf only to have to go back into the aftermath to find his girlfriend before she was murdered a few months later. Tosh was locked up indefinitely and lost Mary/Tommy/Adam/Owen before eventually losing her life. Owen lost Katie before TW even started and had to go through the trauma of dying and being bought back to life a dead man's life. Compare to that Gwen has grown into a strong confident woman, she has a loving husband who supports her in every way and whom she is about to start a family with.

Gwen has had it pretty easier as you also forget that Tosh, Owen and Ianto lost Suzie who was a friend and lover.

[Meef]

Gwen has it pretty easy, she lost everyone she cared about, even Jack, and she has to rebuild her life. I wouldn't call that easy.

[nightowl]

Agreed, Meef.

I don't know if her change of mind was such an easy decision. Think also of the recording that Rhys did. How dark are her thoughts then?

She's also left alone out of the team to pick up the pieces. If she even has the heart to do so. I think she will, because she doesn't have a choice. She is the lone guard at the gate, protecting her city by herself.

How lonely for her, to go back to all of those memories.

Yes, she didn't have the physical trauma of the rest of them, but emotional scars can run just as deep.

[owlpost1992]

Hmm, Jack is back in custody, Ianto is dead the government has mobilised the army to get your children there is no one and nothing to defend yourself, your family or anybody with. Yep I'd be having pretty poor thoughts too.

I think she will pick up the pieces, after all how could she turn back knowing there's so much more out there.

The Hub itself is destroyed and the SUV gone, the only memories she'd go back to are the ones she carries everywhere. Like the ice cream place.

But that's just it. Ianto's 2 biggest emotional traumas left him suicidal and Jack couldn't go on living on the same planet, I won't say anything about Tosh or Owen as we don't know there thoughts and feelings. Gwen may have emotional trauma but she's not the only one to suffer and it wasn't like she was the only one to grief when Tosh and Owen died. With the exclusion of that she really has suffered little.

[Catmoon3]

Hi, total newbie here so I hope you don't mind me jumping into the discussion, but perhaps it might be of some interest to hear the impressions of someone who is coming to all this for the first time without knowing much of any background or having the same strong emotional attachment as long time fans (wow, do I have great timing, or what?! :na:). I haven't seen the CoE declassified, but I've just come straight from watching the one for series 2. I found it a real eye opener, and after watching I can only conclude that Ianto was indeed a 'marked' man, and it's no surprise what happened. I can't help but find some of the fans opinions seem quite valid. Listening to RTD... they planned to kill PC Andy, but then decided they liked him too much. They were going to kill off Rhys, but said he liked the actor who plays him so much he wanted him back. It came off to me as heavily Gwen-centric and Eve Myles seemed to be talking in most of them (to be honest I got bored and just fast forwarded several of them so granted I might have missed something). I believe Gareth only got to talk in one small part. Now, why they were going to kill off the support characters but instead chose do away with almost every one of their main characters... :search: I have no grudge against Gwen, I liked her character from what I've seen. It just seems quite obvious to me that she is the favorite and I would be totally unsurprised to find her in the starring role if they do a 4th. I don't think they could have been more obvious had they come right out and said it.

I don't think those disappointed should give up hope or peaceful and respectful campaigning. I've been in fandom for a long time, and sometimes, fans speaking out do make a difference. The main thing that attracted me in the beginning, the openness and way they mostly treated alternate sexuality as normal, without putting a big spotlight on it (realistic or not it sends a positive message IMHO)... gotta admit I'm wondering if that aspect of the show is gone. Guess I'll have to wait and see. If so... that's truly a shame and makes me sad.

[Banshee]

The main thing that attracted me in the beginning, the openness and way they mostly treated alternate sexuality as normal, without putting a big spotlight on it (realistic or not it sends a positive message IMHO)... gotta admit I'm wondering if that aspect of the show is gone. Guess I'll have to wait and see. If so... that's truly a shame and makes me sad.

Well, you are not the only one that valued Torchwood for the lack of, and sometimes even the dislike it showed of, labels and categories. Neither are you the only one wondering where the hell that openness and acceptance went in CoE, and where it would be if we got a season 4. There is a lot of ranting going on in LJ at the moment, on different fronts, about all the cliches that CoE happened to bring together, about characters and their sexuality, and how it all affects/is affected by the plot. If anybody is interested, I can provide links...

[JohnB]

This is totally my opionion, and no disrespect is intended! so please don't get mad at me :beg:

[spoiler:3ud6v0c6]I just watched it, and I can honestly say I have better understanding for why COE played out like it did. Don't get me wrong....I'm devestated by Ianto's death. It breaks my heart. :cryin: :cryin: I still miss Burn, and Naoko, and I'll soooooo miss Gareth. But this is what drama is meant to do.....tug at the emotions of the audience and bring us to tears. It's not always a happy ending.
In the radio interview on You-Tube ( I believe it's posted in another thread) with Gareth, he said to bring Ianto back would cheapen the death and the emotional impact. I have to agree. It is so powerful as it is.
But would I complain if it happened....Hell no! I'd be thrilled!!!! :blusher:
As for Jack leaving, Russell made sense when he said that going back to the old routine, etc, would be a mockery of what happended to Ianto and Steven. First he lost Ianto and then his grandson, by his own hand so to speak, and in turn his daughter.
That would make anyone want to leave the planet.
It makes sense. The story had to end that way.

I'll be the first to admit it.....after watching COE.....I was gutted and angry :googly1: but to watch this, helps me understand why it had to happen in this story. It also shows that while Jack is a dashing, handsome, hero.....he is also a tortured soul, and he has suffered 2 great losses.

So we're left to wonder....what next? The ending leaves us wanting more. For me anyway.
I would be so shocked if there was not another series. The ratings were massive and the fan base continues to grow. I only hope we see Jack return here, from where COE left off.

So, all in all, I have a better understanding for why things happended the way they did. I won't be able to watch COE for a long time. Not out of distaste, but b/c it breaks my heart.[/spoiler:3ud6v0c6]

[Banshee]

This is totally my opionion, and no disrespect is intended! so please don't get mad at me :beg:

[spoiler:16aypf9o]As for Jack leaving, Russell made sense when he said that going back to the old routine, etc, would be a mockery of what happended to Ianto and Steven. First he lost Ianto and then his grandson, by his own hand so to speak, and in turn his daughter.
That would make anyone want to leave the planet.
It makes sense. The story had to end that way.[/spoiler:16aypf9o]

Oh, different opinions are needed for debating :yes:

[spoiler:16aypf9o]I never said his explanation didn't make sense. Of course after what happens in Day 4 and Day 5 Jack would leave, I don't think anybody is debating that. What I tried to explain was that it could end the way it did without killing Ianto, so justifying his deat "because we need it to take the plot to go where we want it to", sounds like a cheap explanation to me.

And, yes, drama is supposed to tug at viewers' emotions. But, there is tugging, and there is pulling so hard that you leave them with nothing. Torchwood was always good at balancing drama, particularly personal drama for the characters, with a stupid line that made you laugh, or something else that, even if it didn't take away the drama, and the darkness, it left you a bit of hope that things would, somehow, get better. "Combat" comes to mind. We see Owen broken after losing Dianne, we see him wanting out because it just looks like a better option (the way he says "I didn't need saving" hits me hard every time I watch it). Yet, somehow, there is some hope that he'll get back on his feet, coming, probably, from the fact that Jack seems to believe he will. That, to me, was drama. So were a lot of other moments in Series 1 and 2 neatly sprinkled amongst the happy-go-lucky "oh, never mind, it'll be all right in the end".

What I'm left with at the end of CoE is... nothingness. Emptiness. Nothing pays off. Jack loses everything and everybody he loves. Gwen is left with her in-progress family and the choice of rebuilding Torchwood or stepping aside and letting someone else do it. Alice loses both her child and her father, when I was hoping for a chance of a bit of reconciliation between them. Ianto loses his life, in what to me is the worst plan Torchwood have ever tried to put in motion. I'm left clinging to the small mercies, which are few, and far between, and so depressing that the fact that I'm counting them as small mercies makes it all even worse. And in all of that, I don't see much hope for anything, or for any of the characters I've grown to love. To me, that is not drama. That is tragedy. And, thanks but no thanks, when I want tragedy, I go and read the Bard himself, and generally quite by Act II and move on to some lightearted comedy to compensate.[/spoiler:16aypf9o]

Hope that makes some sense... I still get very upset when I try to think about it all.

[JohnB]

The whole scenario we saw was a tradgedy. I still cry just thiking of it

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[Banshee]

The whole scenario we saw was a tradgedy. I still cry just thiking of it

Well, in a way, yes, the whole scenario was a tragedy. But it didn't need to destroy everything the way it did to prove it. And that is the feeling I get from it, that everything and everybody was destroyed for the sake of dramatic effect and tragedy. And well, as I said, if I want tragedy, I read it, but it is not exactly what I want in my scifi. A bit (or a lot) of drama, I can understand and enjoy. Tragedy? Not really.

But that's just me, I guess.

[Meef]

Most great Science Fiction is tragedy. I loved it and would keep it the way it is. What I can't understand is that you want to change a beautiful moment between two lovers for selfish reasons because you just want it that way.

Jack is holding his lover in his arms as he dies. Ianto tells Jack he loves him. It is in this moment Jack is ripped in half. You see it his face. You feel his pain. Ianto dies know that Jack loves him even thought he never says it. His plea for Ianto not to succumb to death. He begs for the life of the man he loves. Ianto dies exactly where he wants to be. In the arms of the one he loves, doing the job he chose and as a hero.

If you can't love that moment and see it for what it is, then I don't know what to say. It is by far one of the best moments in Science Fiction writing. That is real Science Fiction, ripping humanity to its lowest point and rebuilding it. As long as Jack lives so does Ianto. Tragedy yes, but oh so wonderful in it delivery.

Sorry if this seems nasty. I just can't stand the fact that not every one can see the beauty in COE. :hugs: to all.

[JohnB]

Most great Science Fiction is tragedy. I loved it and would keep it the way it is. What I can't understand is that you want to change a beautiful moment between two lovers for selfish reasons because you just want it that way.

Jack is holding his lover in his arms as he dies. Ianto tells Jack he loves him. It is in this moment Jack is ripped in half. You see it his face. You feel his pain. Ianto dies know that Jack loves him even thought he never says it. His plea for Ianto not to succumb to death. He begs for the life of the man he loves. Ianto dies exactly where he wants to be. In the arms of the one he loves, doing the job he chose and as a hero.

If you can't love that moment and see it for what it is, then I don't know what to say. It is by far one of the best moments in Science Fiction writing. That is real Science Fiction, ripping humanity to its lowest point and rebuilding it. As long as Jack lives so does Ianto. Tragedy yes, but oh so wonderful in it delivery.

Sorry if this seems nasty. I just can't stand the fact that not every one can see the beauty in COE. :hugs: to all.


Yes. I agree. Still heartbroken, but I can't deny what an amazing job was done on COE. :clapper:

[Banshee]

Most great Science Fiction is tragedy.
Well, I beg to differ on that one. Most great science fiction is, in my opinion, about the hope that remains even at humanities lowest moments. Tragedy is an element generally used to highlight the thread of hope that is left, but not just for tragedy's sake. All great science fiction stories I can think of, including the classics, always give us a ray of hope.


I loved it and would keep it the way it is. What I can't understand is that you want to change a beautiful moment between two lovers for selfish reasons because you just want it that way.
Well, I'm glad it worked for some people, but it definitely didn't work for me. And I resent the comment about selfish reasons. I have, after the show aired, rewatched it, painful as it was. I have tried to remove my fannish views from the analysis. I have tried to analyze this from different angles. As an amateur writer, I have come to the conclusion that, if there is any narrative need and value in a lot of things that happen in Day 4 and Day 5, it completely escapes me. Yes, the plot as it stands, plotholes and all, does sort of make sense. But to say that things "had to happen in order to get the plot where it went" doesn't quite sit well with me. As a science fiction fan, I can't find the ray of hope that any scifi story leaves behind, however small.


Jack is holding his lover in his arms as he dies. Ianto tells Jack he loves him. It is in this moment Jack is ripped in half. You see it his face. You feel his pain. Ianto dies know that Jack loves him even thought he never says it. His plea for Ianto not to succumb to death. He begs for the life of the man he loves. Ianto dies exactly where he wants to be. In the arms of the one he loves, doing the job he chose and as a hero.

If you can't love that moment and see it for what it is, then I don't know what to say. It is by far one of the best moments in Science Fiction writing. That is real Science Fiction, ripping humanity to its lowest point and rebuilding it. As long as Jack lives so does Ianto. Tragedy yes, but oh so wonderful in it delivery.

Wonderfully delivered, I will agree with. But, like I said earlier, too much tragedy in my science fiction. And I really don't want to go into the whole idea of "pointless deaths of lovers as plot devices to get heroes over the edge" side of it, cos I think that would end in an argument, and that is not the point. But the thing is, "Romeo and Juliet" was already written a few centuries ago, and fine a tragedy as it is, it is not what I, or quite a significant part of the fandom, was expecting to find in CoE. Neither is it what many of us wanted.


Sorry if this seems nasty. I just can't stand the fact that not every one can see the beauty in COE. :hugs: to all.
Oh, there was beauty on it. I'm not denying that. But the last 75min of it make the whole thing nearly impossible to watch again, and take away from any good moment in it, as far as I am concerned. Hence why I also dispute the claims that it was "the best TV we've had all year so far". I don't consider something that a large percentage of the initial viewers will not be able to stomach again a success, to be honest.

[Meef]

I beg to differ with you. The classics have a Tragic end to most of the stories, Dune comes to mind, as does Fahrenheit 451, the ray of hope is that Jack will be back to protect the place where Ianto was born and die for, Earth. There is a ray of hope in this. I believe that. In the original Star Trek series which was written by some of the big names in Science fiction, a good portion of the show ended in lost love or some tragic element. B5 messed everyone's life up for the sake of drama and is still watched and love by the world over. If your talking STTNG then that was politically motivated to be a happier ending were there is very little death and most was resolved with a speech. As older Science Fiction is a parody of the times, I don't see why the modern equivalent can't be the same. We live in tough times. Let it reflect that. I still see nothing wrong. And I know a lot of people who have watched it again and again and will in the future.

If you feel that way then fine, this is your topic. I realise that my debate is just an opinion, but I not alone in it, as you are not alone in yours. After all I watched Broke Back Mountain a hundred times over again, knowing that there was no hope in hell of Jack living. I read the short story a million times again. You have to have a stomach for this kind of thing. I think is a brilliant way for RTD to push Torchwood to a newer place. I see nothing wrong with that. Sorry if we don't see eye to eye, But I still respect you. :hugs:

[nightowl]

Another example that Meef missed is The Empire Strikes Back. Look at the things that happened at the end of that film to Luke and Han. In that instance, the SW trilogy was known as a space opera, another tried and true science fiction mode of storytelling.

[Banshee]

Well, Dune, to me, always had a ray of hope. Even through the darkest of it, the times of the God Emperor Leto and such, there was a ray of hope if you believed everything both Leto and Paul before him was done in order to keep Humanity in the narrow path that would keep it alive. A lot of other classics, ranging from "Songs of a distant Earth" by Arthur C. Clarke to even most of Phillip K. Dick stories, leave a ray of hope in the middle of the destruction they start with. But, then again, I guess it could be argued that that is just a different style of scifi.

The thing with "The Empire Strikes Back" is that I've always known it as the middle piece of a story, and George Lucas has always stated that the three movies were conceived as a single story; whether he would get to make the three or not, was, at first, a different story, but they were a single story in his mind. Heck, as far as I know, even the latest trilogy was in his mind when he did the original three back in the day. So, in short, I've never seen that as an "ending", rather as a middle point.

On top of that, well, the mood of the movie always makes you feel things will be righted, however badly they go. And that is precisely the difference. I've watched those movies a lot of times with people who hand't seen them before, and they never asked "is Han going to make it out of that block of whatever it was?", but "so, who's going to rescue Han Solo this time?". What I'm left with at the end of Children of Earth is the nagging feeling that things will never be put right, and I'm not referring to Ianto's death here, but rather to everything that happens to Torchwood, as a team, as an organization, and as a universe.

And, like I said before, debate is good, as long as we keep it civilized. We are entitled to our opinions and well, what's the point of debate if we all agree? :wink: In a way, it is good to see it actually worked for some people, but I still think we should have been given a ray of hope, and there was no need to burn everything to the ground and pour salt on it for good measure.

[nightowl]

Yes, you make a valid point in regards to the SW movies. And yes, Lucas knew the back story of the first three but knew that the other stories would make better viewing, which is why he started with #4.

What I see as the ray of hope is that Gwen survived. That, for Jack is the one thing that he takes away with him. And it is the possible path of self redemption for him. If there is anything that mitigates what happened for him, it is that he did save the children of the world and the future of humanity, and incidentally, Gwen's child as well.


And it is that which will probably draw him back to Earth at some point. He said it himself in Utopia when he told the Doctor what it was like to watch those people, and their willpower. And, like the Doctor, he'll be drawn back to earth at some point. He's grown to appreciate that indomitable trait in the human race.

[Banshee]

Well, I don't think Jack will be back as easily, or as early, as everybody seems to think. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I think he'll be gone a long, long time. He saved the children, yes, but he'll beat himself over the head with the price he paid, and the price he made others (Alice) pay. And that will haunt him for a long time, with nobody to help him get a different perspective on it.

He will be drawn back to earth, eventually, no doubt about it. It may just take much longer than people expect... That's my view, anyway...

[Meef]

Also out of the ashes grows something a new. The ray of hope is in the next series. It did indeed exist. Let Jack heal.

[gisyl]

Most great Science Fiction is tragedy. I loved it and would keep it the way it is. What I can't understand is that you want to change a beautiful moment between two lovers for selfish reasons because you just want it that way.

Jack is holding his lover in his arms as he dies. Ianto tells Jack he loves him. It is in this moment Jack is ripped in half. You see it his face. You feel his pain. Ianto dies know that Jack loves him even thought he never says it. His plea for Ianto not to succumb to death. He begs for the life of the man he loves. Ianto dies exactly where he wants to be. In the arms of the one he loves, doing the job he chose and as a hero.

If you can't love that moment and see it for what it is, then I don't know what to say. It is by far one of the best moments in Science Fiction writing. That is real Science Fiction, ripping humanity to its lowest point and rebuilding it. As long as Jack lives so does Ianto. Tragedy yes, but oh so wonderful in it delivery.

Completly agree with you here.
Yes,it was tragic and heartbreaking,even for people who don`t ship them or who are the biggest fan of the pairing.
It was beautifully done,in all it`s tragedy.

As for Jack not coming back for a long time,I think that time is not an issue for him but more for the people who he has left behind.
Right now,he needs all the time to heal and to realise that people make their own choices and while there are sometimes situations where he has to make the tough descision,it always is for the greater good.
I also think that it also depends on what kind of role,if any role,the doctor plays in this.

[Banshee]

I also think that it also depends on what kind of role,if any role,the doctor plays in this.

Like I said in the original post, I just hope we don't get any kind of "instant healing" of Jack at the Doctor's hands... That would really spoil it all for me. The very little that hasn't been spoilt for me yet...

[Meef]

I also think that it also depends on what kind of role,if any role,the doctor plays in this.

Like I said in the original post, I just hope we don't get any kind of "instant healing" of Jack at the Doctor's hands... That would really spoil it all for me. The very little that hasn't been spoilt for me yet...


The Doctor is the only one who understands what Jack had to go through. If he can help Jack heal and get back to Earth, then fine. Also they are friends, aren't friends there to support each other?

[Banshee]

The Doctor is the only one who understands what Jack had to go through. If he can help Jack heal and get back to Earth, then fine. Also they are friends, aren't friends there to support each other?

Oh, of course the Doctor understands Jack, and would want to help, and support, and all of that. I just don't think it would be appropriate for everything to be "magically healed" after a couple of episodes running with the Doctor. I think Jack could probably get a bit more perspective on everything by spending some time with the Doctor, put everything in a context that could take him a bit out of his misery and into a path of healing, there's no doubt about it. But I wouldn't want magical solutions for it all. Not if Jack's losses, ans his pain, are meant to be, as RTD so much insists, real and properly tragic.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining that properly but there is a difference in my head between the two possibilites...

[owlpost1992]

To me, the here and now there is no hope. Gwen is pregnant she's on her own and thus can't chase weevils or other aliens that come to earth, yes she can get a team together but they take time to learn about Torchwood, how it operates and to gel with other team members. She'll probably have to take 6 months maternity leave which means she'll have even less time to build Torchwood 3 and then there is the rebuilding of the Hub and SUV not to mention finding the alien weapons before anyone else gets there hands on it. Jack at this moment is too broken to be of any use to Torchwood. What hope is there really?

That scene is greatly acted out but I need to know one thing Jack is a con artist and a rouge so he a bit like Han Solo, why would he of all people walk into a enemy base without a ace up his sleeve and try to bluff the enemy? He had more to lose then the alien.

OK, Night Owl, I think it was sorry if I have wrong names, but you said about Empire Strikes Back and how Han was frozen into a block of ice at the end and Luke was broken at knowing his father was Darth Vada. I don't see this as the tragedy everyone else does Han was frozen but effectively alive all they had to do was get him out and Luke had to recover from that terrible news and move on to help his friend, there isn't doom and gloom at all.


Edit: sorry got the name wrong have fixed now.

[nightowl]

Actually, that was me who used the Empire analogy.

Luke not only had one hell of a shock (yes the evil overlord was your father and the man who was the polar opposite of everything you stood for,) plus he lost his hand. It was replaced with a robotic hand, thus making Luke into the very thing that Darth Vader was - part man, part machine. Devastating, psychologically.

There was no clear indication that Han was going to get out of that. Jabba could have killed him once he arrived back at Mos Isley. The good guys had no clue as to what was going to happen.

But getting back to Gwen - she's a great facilitator. She's smart, and she can delegate. And depending on who she has to help her, she can certainly rebuild while pregnant. No, she can't chase Weevils, but she can do a good job of finding people who can.

All of this is speculation, of course. Until and unless there is a S4, we're all just guessing, as usual.

[owlpost1992]

I'm sure they knew that Jabba would have wanted to keep Han where he could see him as part of his decoration rather then kill of his enemy.

She's great at delegating but first she needs people who know what they are doing, I mean it took months for Gwen to be sure what she was doing and be comfortable with it. Also can one person recruit/train/build all at the same time?

By the way the killing off the whole team does it smack anyone of what happened to Alex's team? OK so Jack didn't pull the trigger but he was responsible. Gray was his brother who sought revenge and the 456 called Jack's bluff.

[Meef]

Gwen was in the action from day one. She asked questions and learned fast. She was a cop, not some body off the street, she had some training before. I think she has been around long enough to come up with a plan to rebuild Torchwood, She only coordinated a city when Gray attacked. I wouldn't call her incompetent. She will have Rhys and PC Andy and a bunch of others who would help if only to protect their own against any other threat like the 456.

[owlpost1992]

Chucking tools at Owen then using her police instincts to treat the alien as a human criminal by doing a full profile on Cerys to locate her, doesn't really smack of TW just her treating things as she would if she was with the police. She didn't even know how to stop the alien just that she had to sacrifice herself to it to save Cerys and stop what she'd done.

I'm sorry but nobody walks into a new work place and knows exactly what it is they are doing, they train and learn from their experiences which is what Gwen did. She is not the same confident Gwen in Day One (S1) as she was in KKBB because she has that experience and knowledge.

as for rebuilding, Lois is a shoe in but I can't see her working Tosh's tech as she was given a high level password/sign in to use which she did to snoop, Tosh would have hacked it easily without that. PC Andy not sure what role he'd play as Gwen is already liaising with the police. Rhys, all he was in CoE was essentially the coffee boy, he'd be an asset to help think things through but I'm not sure about him and weevil hunting.

Gwen hasn't really rebuilt anything before, when she took charge the team were still assembled, so its gonna be a steep learning curve. I assume this will be where Martha and Mickey come in as help.

I never said she was incompetent only that could she handle the stress of rebuilding the SUV/Hub/Team from scratch while being pregnant.

[Meef]

I disagree. You just don't get people to follow with out knowing something first. And Gwen verse her first day until the end of COE are totally different people. And why would Owen ,Tosh and Ianto let her take charge after Jack was gone if she didn't have something going for her.I think with Martha'sa help and Torchwood two and the computer system she can do it and put together a new team. Remember as we learn in COE, Torchwood 3 didn't put all it's eggs in one basket. And Pregnant woman aren't made out of glass. If so my country never would have branched out and tamed the wild American. Nor would farms be tended to around the worldwide. that is a not a good reason. :hugs:

[nightowl]

There's a wealth of people to choose from in terms of staff. As has been mentioned elsewhere, there's Johnson who could be an asset now that she's not blindly following orders and perhaps will think for herself. I personally would find it reprehensible for Dekker to be chosen since there is something so evil and smarmy about that man, but he would certainly have the computer skills if he had hacked into the TW mainframe like he said he had.

There's also Mickey, and others like him out there. All people who could step in on the rebuilding. So it's not impossible.

I think it's a disservice to discount Gwen's capabilities at this point.

[gisyl]

Banshee wrote:
gisyl wrote:
I also think that it also depends on what kind of role,if any role,the doctor plays in this.


Like I said in the original post, I just hope we don't get any kind of "instant healing" of Jack at the Doctor's hands... That would really spoil it all for me. The very little that hasn't been spoilt for me yet...



The Doctor is the only one who understands what Jack had to go through. If he can help Jack heal and get back to Earth, then fine. Also they are friends, aren't friends there to support each other?
That is what I was thinking too.
They are friends and understand each other,maybe even more now then ever.
Plus,as I see it the doctor is the only constant person in Jack`s life,being there when he became immortal and someone he would always turn to.


I`m suprised when I read that some people think Gwen isn`t capable in rebuilding Torchwood.
She has always been a strong person and only has grown more and more.
Besides that,she is a modern woman aswell,so I don`t see how her being a mother would stop her.
If anything,I could see her rebuild it because she feels she has to.

[SerenityChaos]

I was sort of had a nice reply going but Meef and Nightowl pretty much summed it up for me. LOL

[Meef]

Banshee wrote:
gisyl wrote:
I also think that it also depends on what kind of role,if any role,the doctor plays in this.


Like I said in the original post, I just hope we don't get any kind of "instant healing" of Jack at the Doctor's hands... That would really spoil it all for me. The very little that hasn't been spoilt for me yet...



The Doctor is the only one who understands what Jack had to go through. If he can help Jack heal and get back to Earth, then fine. Also they are friends, aren't friends there to support each other?
That is what I was thinking too.
They are friends and understand each other,maybe even more now then ever.
Plus,as I see it the doctor is the only constant person in Jack`s life,being there when he became immortal and someone he would always turn to.


I`m suprised when I read that some people think Gwen isn`t capable in rebuilding Torchwood.
She has always been a strong person and only has grown more and more.
Besides that,she is a modern woman aswell,so I don`t see how her being a mother would stop her.
If anything,I could see her rebuild it because she feels she has to.



That was it! She feels she has to. I couldn't put that together last night. Jolein that was perfect!

[JUDE]

I too am finding it very hard to justify why they killed off Ianto.

Whenever you read interviews or look at clips from the conventions from everyone associated with Torchwood ie Russell T Davies, Julie Gardener, the cast, everyone asks about the "Jack and Ianto relationship". Everyone who worked on Torchwood knew how popular it was, so I find it very hard to understand how they thought they would not get the reaction that they did. Unless this is what they planned all long. Maybe they thought how can we get Torchwood on the map, I know lets kill off Ianto.

Perhaps there is a lot more to this than we know

[gisyl]

They have done a great job in hyping things up to the max and it worked perfectly because the viewerfigures were good.

As far as Ianto concerend,yeah it was sad but I find it amazing that people get so caught up with that,that they seem to forgot that in season 2 were killed aswell.
There was not as nearly an uproar for Tosh and Owen as there is for Ianto now which really is a shame.

I see people who say that they should have killed of Gwen because she is useless,well that is a nice thing to hear for the fans of Gwen and frankly an insult aswell.

It would be nice if there were no killings and everybody lives happily ever after,but it doesn`t work that way in Torchwood.
Torchwood has always been intended as being dark,more gruesome and more adult,which is what it is.
Jack is by no means a prince charming,nor is he the monster some people think he is.
And Gwen is not a little girl but a full grown woman who knows what she should do and not do.

Ianto,Owen,Tosh and Suzie knew that if they were with Torchwood they wouldn`t get old.
They accepted that and lived by it.

I have watched day 4 again and what I see is a Ianto who doesn`t object but goes with Jack to fight for the children.
He is willing to risk his life for them and is in no way forced by Jack to go with him.
I doubt he didn`t know he could be killed,cause he already has been in a war and came out 'unharmed' and he knows that one day that luck is running out.
For him it was that day and the comfort he had that he was with Jack and died in his arms.

[JUDE]

So what is the point of having a Series four, they might as well just finish it now.

If they do get a new cast for Series four, how many are going to be killed off in that one.

Why we should we the viewer, watch it and begin to care about the characters, if all the writers are going to say is "Well Torchwood is adult and its a dangerours world, so lets kill off the majority of the characters". They had already nearly killed everyone who worked in Torchwood One, killed Susie, then Owen (twice) and then Tosita, so I do get it that Torchwood is a dangerous place to work. But I think they might have gone for Overkill.

[gisyl]

I don`t know why you should watch but I know I want to see a season 4 because I wanna see how they get back and how they struggle and how they are gonna rise up again to face up to aliens who are treating the earth.
And I want to see how Captain Jack`s life goes on.
For me Jack is the one person who is Torchwood,to see him going through the emtions,feelins,descions and yes even if he is rude and heartless,is Torchwood.


The fact is that if I watch Torchwood,I know that there is a possibility that characters get killed because it is always been said that people in Torchwood don`t get old.
I`m invested in the characters,maybe in some others more but I invest in the knowledge that for a what could be a short periode of time but nobody knows how long,I`m allowed to see the life of that character.

[Jath]

Just a quick thank-you to Banshee from a n00b poster - you have completely nailed how I feel about Season 3 in your posts here.

Without wanting to derail the thread - is anyone going to be at, or know anyone who is going to Comic Con 2009 in San Diego this weekend? JB, RTD, JG and Euros Lyn will be discussing CoE and taking questions from the audience on Sunday. Given that CoE is airing this week in the US, I'm guessing that fan passions may be running quite high :spite: .

[Meef]

I don`t know why you should watch but I know I want to see a season 4 because I wanna see how they get back and how they struggle and how they are gonna rise up again to face up to aliens who are treating the earth.
And I want to see how Captain Jack`s life goes on.
For me Jack is the one person who is Torchwood,to see him going through the emtions,feelins,descions and yes even if he is rude and heartless,is Torchwood.


The fact is that if I watch Torchwood,I know that there is a possibility that characters get killed because it is always been said that people in Torchwood don`t get old.
I`m invested in the characters,maybe in some others more but I invest in the knowledge that for a what could be a short period of time but nobody knows how long,I`m allowed to see the life of that character.

Totally agree! Think of it this way, we never would have found out anything about these characters for years. Knowing they were going to kill them, they allowed us into their lives. And a glimpse of who they are and what they love. Shows menander around for years and we find out next to nothing about the characters. I like that we got to know them, really know them. Their impact was far greater this way then if they had lived. I'm looking forward to a season 4.

[owlpost1992]

There's a wealth of people to choose from in terms of staff. As has been mentioned elsewhere, there's Johnson who could be an asset now that she's not blindly following orders and perhaps will think for herself. I personally would find it reprehensible for Dekker to be chosen since there is something so evil and smarmy about that man, but he would certainly have the computer skills if he had hacked into the TW mainframe like he said he had.

There's also Mickey, and others like him out there. All people who could step in on the rebuilding. So it's not impossible.

I think it's a disservice to discount Gwen's capabilities at this point.


I disagree. You just don't get people to follow with out knowing something first. And Gwen verse her first day until the end of COE are totally different people. And why would Owen ,Tosh and Ianto let her take charge after Jack was gone if she didn't have something going for her.I think with Martha'sa help and Torchwood two and the computer system she can do it and put together a new team. Remember as we learn in COE, Torchwood 3 didn't put all it's eggs in one basket. And Pregnant woman aren't made out of glass. If so my country never would have branched out and tamed the wild American. Nor would farms be tended to around the worldwide. that is a not a good reason. :hugs:

I've never said they were incompetent just that the skills needed for TW differ to those they except Mickey and possibly Martha (don't know how good with a gun she is). You do need time to bed down new team members and gel, if anything happened big time she's back up a creek without a paddle.

[MJ30]

I'm quite new here so i'm not sure if i should be meddling in other people's discussions, but I just really wanted to say that I completly agree with what Banshee says, you put my thoughts into words
I think killing Steven was really dramatic and enough to make Jack want to leave Earth for a while, Ianto was just overkill and to me it even overshadow steven's death (everyone just really cares about Ianto honestly) witch could've been a perfectly dramatic ending. and Ianto would have been the perfect reason for Jack to come back (no intention of undermining Gwen)
To me his death was just unnecessary and the whole ending make it seem that if they are coming back they want to do it from scratch and create a whole new Torchwood, witch to me as a fan, is not particulary exicting.

I also agree with what Banshee says about the doctor "magically healing" Jack, it wouldn't feel right if he just came back being his old self, flirting with everyone, like if nothing had happened, it would take away the tragic feeling of the end of day 5, witch is supposse to be the reason for all the killing.

Sorry if my ortography and readacting skills in english aren't the best, I'm from Mexico

[singingsnail]

I think the way Torchwood works is actually much better for the viewer than the shows where we all know who is going to be saved at the last minute. I like the fact RTD has a realistic view of how people feel and builds the show around that too, I haven't seen many shows where the main character has to head off for a while because the ending of the story was too traumatic to just carry on to the next adventure. RTD said that people die and it just isn't realistic for everyone to survive when such a huge event takes place, (not a direct quote), and he's right. With Torchwood we never know what is going to happen next and I like that, the unpredictability of it all is what keeps me watching. I will watch Torchwood however many more series are made and whoever may be killed off, because the fragility and uncertainty of life are the more realistic and compelling aspects of the show.

[JUDE]

Thats ok for a short while, but it will turn out that Jack will not allow himself to care (as everyone is going to die anyway) At the moment he knows that he will probally outlive everyone so he kinds of expects it, I mean he will even outlive the Doctor after he has all his regeneration. But as we saw at the end of COE, this knowledge of outliving everyone is taking its toil on Jack, if there is another series, why would he come back to earth, why should he open his heart and learn to love, even have another family as he will all watch them die.

I just think it would make a really good storyline, if Ianto could be brought back, would he be the same, would Jack allow himself to love again, knowing he could go through all this heartache again.

Plus the fact that according to Jack, Ianto is in eternal darkness as there is nothing after death and I don't like to think of Ianto all alone in the darkness - he needs to be back with Jack

[Meef]

I think the way Torchwood works is actually much better for the viewer than the shows where we all know who is going to be saved at the last minute. I like the fact RTD has a realistic view of how people feel and builds the show around that too, I haven't seen many shows where the main character has to head off for a while because the ending of the story was too traumatic to just carry on to the next adventure. RTD said that people die and it just isn't realistic for everyone to survive when such a huge event takes place, (not a direct quote), and he's right. With Torchwood we never know what is going to happen next and I like that, the unpredictability of it all is what keeps me watching. I will watch Torchwood however many more series are made and whoever may be killed off, because the fragility and uncertainty of life are the more realistic and compelling aspects of the show.

:clapper:

Realism that is the term. And it is the best way to look at Torchwood. I think that is why it makes it unique. B5 did this as well. And it worked. If you want Ianto back that is fine, but that would make it like the magic that some of you are afraid that the Doctor will do to Jack to make him better. I still think it is a big mistake. At this point it would really ruin the show to see Ianto back. I would rather see Jack coping with his loss. Maybe dreaming of him, or talking to him when thinks are bad. Something that is a normal reaction to the death of a lover.

[JUDE]

Realism is fine, but if I really wanted it I could just turn on the news or reality tv. Torchwood is science fiction, therefore all things are and can be possible.

[CLay]

i really liked that season, it was great in it's own way.... but i feel a little, dunno, wrecked thinking about it.
it's all about quality lately, fine, THAT was quality entertainment (doesn't quite fit the term though).
but honestly, i liked it fun and edgy, not sure if i could stand another season with a tone like that.

[Banshee]

I'm quite new here so i'm not sure if i should be meddling in other people's discussions

Meddle away, that's why we are here, to discuss things ;)


Thats ok for a short while, but it will turn out that Jack will not allow himself to care [...] But as we saw at the end of COE, this knowledge of outliving everyone is taking its toil on Jack, if there is another series, why would he come back to earth, why should he open his heart and learn to love, even have another family as he will all watch them die.

That ties in with something I think I have mentioned earlier (I think): hopelessness. To me scifi has always been about finding the ray of hope in the worst of it all, and CoE gives me none of it. (Yes, I am fully aware that some of you have said that you do actually find some hope in the ending, I'm glad you do, but I don't). And Jack at the end of CoE is, to me, the clearest point of hopelessness. He's lost everything. In the first two season we see him slowly open up, to friendships, to love. In the first episode of CoE we see him genuinely trying to reach out to his family. Jack, the conman, the immortal, with all the reasons in the world to stay away from the world itself and everyone in it, slowly opens up to those around him, and cares. And then has everything, absolutely everything, taken from him. So, yeah, I agree, why would he come back, why would he open up?

Most of us have, at some point or another, lost somebody, and know how hard it is to get back on your feet. Out of personal experience, every time it has happened, the one thing that eventually made me snap out of it and stop moping about was the thought that well, I had been moping for long enough, and couldn't carry on like that for the rest of my life, because it's been "insert time measure here" since it happened, and I didn't have all the time in the world to grieve to my heart's content. Jack, on the other hand, has all eternity, so he's in no hurry. He coudl be away, grieving, for centuries. :cryin:


I think the way Torchwood works is actually much better for the viewer than the shows where we all know who is going to be saved at the last minute.

Well, to a certain point, yes, shows where "everybody lives, every time" can end up being, well, unappealing. But, on the other hand, shows where just about everybody dies, every other episode, end up being equally unappealing, becaue, as someone mentioned earlier, most viewers (and I count myself in that group) will try very hard to not care about the characters, because, in the end, they will all die (and I don't know about the rest of you, but I have had/still have enough grief in my life to want any more caused by fictional characters). There is a balance to be struck there, and I don't think CoE found it.


I also agree with what Banshee says about the doctor "magically healing" Jack, it wouldn't feel right if he just came back being his old self, flirting with everyone, like if nothing had happened, it would take away the tragic feeling of the end of day 5, witch is supposse to be the reason for all the killing.

Yep. That is precisely why I am dreading the Christmas especials, if Jack really is in them. If, after all Jack's been put through, for the sake of "drama" and "the story" and "Torchwood being an adult show", it all ends up being healed by the Doctor because "we can't have such a brooding character in Doctor Who", I'm going to be seriously, and I mean seriously, annoyed. Because it would mean that, for the sake of keeping a character in two shows, the writers would be contradicting their own reasonings.

Right, sorry for the rant again :rolleyes: I'm trying not to rant too much, but I think I'm failing miserably...

[Meef]

Clay I like fun and edgy as well but I think I rather watch something like COE again. I think that after so many DW episodes when characters show up and die, we would all be use to it. But Torchwood which is suppose to be the adult show we can't expect it. I'm sorry but there were many times when I didn't want to watch a whole ship of people die because the Doctor did something or didn't do something. At least the team of Torchwood tries to save the world and their lives are given up for the balance. I'm wondering though and this is a point that has been showing up all over the place. If it had been Gwen and the baby, would you have been saying the same thing? Just thought I throw that on the table.

[Banshee]

I think that after so many DW episodes when characters show up and die, we would all be use to it. But Torchwood which is suppose to be the adult show we can't expect it.

Well, there is a difference there. Characters show up in Doctor Who and die, yes. But they are background characters. The main characers (The Doctor, Rose, Martha, Donna) always survive. Even not-so-main characters, like Rose's, Martha's and Donna's families survive. The worse that happens to any of those characters is Donna losing her memories of her times with the Doctor, and Rose being trapped in the parallel universe - which got "sorted" in the end with the Season 4 finale.

So, yeah, in Doctor Who, background characters, even minor characters that appear in a few episodes, have died. That happens in every show. But the core characters remain. But look at what happened in Torchwood: in the space of five episodes, from "Exit Wounds" to "Day 4", 3/5 of the main characters are killed. That is, to me, a bit over the top.


I'm wondering though and this is a point that has been showing up all over the place. If it had been Gwen and the baby, would you have been saying the same thing? Just thought I throw that on the table.

If you mean, would I still say there was no reason to kill her, if it had been Gwen instead of Ianto in Floor 13 with Jack?, the answer is yes. What I tried to explain in my original post is that, however much the writers try to convince us otherwise, I don't see a need in the plot to kill any of the main characters, particularly not so soon after Tosh and Owen. Who died in that room wouldn't have made a difference to my opinion on that.

[MJ30]

I'm wondering though and this is a point that has been showing up all over the place. If it had been Gwen and the baby, would you have been saying the same thing? Just thought I throw that on the table.

If you mean, would I still say there was no reason to kill her, if it had been Gwen instead of Ianto in Floor 13 with Jack?, the answer is yes. What I tried to explain in my original post is that, however much the writers try to convince us otherwise, I don't see a need in the plot to kill any of the main characters, particularly not so soon after Tosh and Owen. Who died in that room wouldn't have made a difference to my opinion on that.[/quote]

Agree 100%

To me Torchwood is as mush about the story as about the characters and killing 3 in 6 episodes is too much
What upsets me about Ianto's death is that I fell is unnecessary because Jack could've killed his grandson and left Earth even if Ianto was still alive, so I don't see how it "had" to happened for the sake of the plot. If Gwen had been the one to die it would've been equally unnecessary and upsetting to me

[CLay]

Clay I like fun and edgy as well but I think I rather watch something like COE again. I think that after so many DW episodes when characters show up and die, we would all be use to it. But Torchwood which is suppose to be the adult show we can't expect it. I'm sorry but there were many times when I didn't want to watch a whole ship of people die because the Doctor did something or didn't do something. At least the team of Torchwood tries to save the world and their lives are given up for the balance. I'm wondering though and this is a point that has been showing up all over the place. If it had been Gwen and the baby, would you have been saying the same thing? Just thought I throw that on the table.
*eek* you set me a trap :wink:
i'm just talking about the direction the whole thing goes. it was sublime, no matter what.
but, dunno how to put it, it was a bit stressful towards the end. and it's a strange feeling of fear when thinking of things to come, missing the easy-going, mellow-to-watch show i grew to love.

[Banshee]

but, dunno how to put it, it was a bit stressful towards the end. and it's a strange feeling of fear when thinking of things to come, missing the easy-going, mellow-to-watch show i grew to love.

Exactly. It wasn't what it said in the tin, not remotely. But I think I've already said that, haven't I?

[Meef]

Fair enough, but I see the need. The hope is in Gwen, if you want hope, and that Jack will come back. This is a very good way to keep the story moving forward. If you ever watch a war film, people die. If you watched Space Above and Beyond they Killed 3 main characters and wounded a third in the last episode. but the show was cancelled long before it aired so that had nothing to do with the decision of Fox for not bring it back. Also it was the shows best episode. Character death is part of literature. So yes RTD did right by us and the story in the most of traditional of ways. He left us devastated and wanting more.

[gisyl]

I feel the need for Iantos death was to show how emotional vulnerble Jack is.
Yes,the death of Stephan could have done that but not alone.
It had to be someone who was even more close,hence Ianto.

No,it wasn`t what I expected,it was much more then that.
It was devasted,cruel but there is a glimmer of hope,like Meef said.
Jack won`t stay away,he loves the people of earth too much for that.
Besides that,I also think he needs to be back on earth once he is ready,simply because that is were he belongs.

[* laurie *]

Fair enough, but I see the need. The hope is in Gwen, if you want hope, and that Jack will come back. This is a very good way to keep the story moving forward. If you ever watch a war film, people die. If you watched Space Above and Beyond they Killed 3 main characters and wounded a third in the last episode. but the show was cancelled long before it aired so that had nothing to do with the decision of Fox for not bring it back. Also it was the shows best episode. Character death is part of literature. So yes RTD did right by us and the story in the most of traditional of ways. He left us devastated and wanting more.

well said, its a drama series at the end of the day and they definetly gave us drama! people die its not just a fact in drama series its fact of life aswell, and it happens in every series these days like heroes and lost they both killed of my favorite characters this year but i dont think any less of the show because it got a strong emotional reaction out of me and that makes great telly and writing for me anyway, and its not like the ending doesnt have any hope gwens pregnant and its not like jacks never going to come back ever

[CLay]

Fair enough, but I see the need. The hope is in Gwen, if you want hope, and that Jack will come back. This is a very good way to keep the story moving forward. If you ever watch a war film, people die. If you watched Space Above and Beyond they Killed 3 main characters and wounded a third in the last episode. but the show was cancelled long before it aired so that had nothing to do with the decision of Fox for not bring it back. Also it was the shows best episode. Character death is part of literature. So yes RTD did right by us and the story in the most of traditional of ways. He left us devastated and wanting more.
i'm not talking about characters in the first place, it's more about atmosphere etc. it's really hard to grab. it's about having actual fun watching a programme.
also i think that all the darkness served to us would wear off a bit when they continue like this, but there's no plausible way to reverse it.

[Banshee]

Fair enough, but I see the need. The hope is in Gwen, if you want hope, and that Jack will come back. This is a very good way to keep the story moving forward. If you ever watch a war film, people die. If you watched Space Above and Beyond they Killed 3 main characters and wounded a third in the last episode. but the show was cancelled long before it aired so that had nothing to do with the decision of Fox for not bring it back. Also it was the shows best episode. Character death is part of literature. So yes RTD did right by us and the story in the most of traditional of ways. He left us devastated and wanting more.

See, that is where we disagree. I don't see Jack returning, not any time soon. Possibly not within Gwen's lifetime, unless we get some "magic hand waving" from the Doctor (which would really disappoint me, and, like I've said somewhere, nicely contradict all their arguments for having the tragedy in CoE in the first place), so I don't see that ray of hope. I can as easily see Gwen struggling to rebuild Torchwood as running away from it all and deciding humanity is not worth saving.

And, no, personally, CoE doesn't leave me wanting more. I've had a year of CoE hype and promises and half truths, to be sorely disappointed by what we were actually given, despite the fantastic acting, and some very strong points. And obviously that doesn't leave me wanting more. Like I said earlier, if I wanted tragedy, I'd go read Shakespeare. If that is what Torchwood is going to be from now on, one tragedy after another, always hitting the same characters and being somewhat merciful to others, that is not what I liked about the show, and that is not something I would watch it for.


I feel the need for Iantos death was to show how emotional vulnerble Jack is.

IMHO, we have alrady seen Jack's vulnerable side, more than once. The duality between the larger-than-life Captain Harkness, leader of Torchwood Three, immortal and invincible defender of the Earth (or at least Cardiff and surrounding areas) and the rarely seen, private and already very broken Jack has been in Torchwood since the beginning. He's always been the one to shoulder the hard decisions, the responsability, and the guilt and pain that went with them. We've seen how things affect him and shake him to the core more than once. There was, as far as I can see, no need to destroy everything he loved to prove that.

[gisyl]

But Torchwood is tragedy,is drama.
It is a serie which has been like that from the start,there was always a loss wether it was within Torchwood or because of the actions from Torchwood.
Series 3 wasn`t much darker then the other 2 series,I mean don`t tell me that the episode with the canibals was fun to watch.
The only thing what was different was that while there was an alien involved,the other enemy was the goverment.
Who was willing to use children and who were willing to detroy the one thing which could have helped them sooner
That and the fact that it involved children was what made it different..
So,for me personally I don`t see what different Torchwood was in series 3 comparing to series 1 and 2.


IMHO, we have alrady seen Jack's vulnerable side, more than once. The duality between the larger-than-life Captain Harkness, leader of Torchwood Three, immortal and invincible defender of the Earth (or at least Cardiff and surrounding areas) and the rarely seen, private and already very broken Jack has been in Torchwood since the beginning. He's always been the one to shoulder the hard decisions, the responsability, and the guilt and pain that went with them. We've seen how things affect him and shake him to the core more than once. There was, as far as I can see, no need to destroy everything he loved to prove that.
Not vunerble enough for him to question his actions cause otherwise he would be left long time ago.
I doubt that the deaths of Ianto and Stephen were the only things which make him go away.
There is so much more to explore and personally,I would love to see that.

[* laurie *]

im glad someone else has said that, COE wasnt the first time torchwoods been full of tragedy and drama and heartbreak and whatever else they throw in torchwood was made as a dark adult drama to go to the places where doctor who couldnt simple as, they killed tosh and owen that was heartbreaking, the canibals episode is still one of the darkest things iv seen on tv, a guy took his own life because he couldnt handle being out of his own time, a little girl was sent away (even if it was her choice) from her parents to be with the frankly scary faries its no different apart from it was on a bigger scale as it lasted 5 days and maybe felt a bit more real in terms of the governments story, if people want an everybody lives! happy positive ending watch doctor who

[CLay]

its no different apart from it was on a bigger scale as it lasted 5 days and maybe felt a bit more real in terms of the governments story
i was going to say that. maybe that's really what makes the trick.

[* laurie *]

im glad someone else has said that, COE wasnt the first time torchwoods been full of tragedy and drama and heartbreak and whatever else they throw in torchwood was made as a dark adult drama to go to the places where doctor who couldnt simple as, they killed tosh and owen that was heartbreaking, the canibals episode is still one of the darkest things iv seen on tv, a guy took his own life because he couldnt handle being out of his own time, a little girl was sent away (even if it was her choice) from her parents to be with the frankly scary faries its no different apart from it was on a bigger scale as it lasted 5 days and maybe felt a bit more real in terms of the governments story, if people want an everybody lives! happy positive ending watch doctor who

[Banshee]

But Torchwood is tragedy,is drama.
Torchwood has never been tragedy. It has been drama, but never absolute tragedy that broke the characters beyond recovery. Even Owen, after he loses Dianne and becomes, well, suicidal, eventually gets back on his feet, in his own peculiar and fucked up way.


It is a serie which has been like that from the start,there was always a loss wether it was within Torchwood or because of the actions from Torchwood.
Series 3 wasn`t much darker then the other 2 series,I mean don`t tell me that the episode with the canibals was fun to watch.
The only thing what was different was that while there was an alien involved,the other enemy was the goverment.
Who was willing to use children and who were willing to detroy the one thing which could have helped them sooner
That and the fact that it involved children was what made it different..
So,for me personally I don`t see what different Torchwood was in series 3 comparing to series 1 and 2.
Well, I don't agree with that at all. Series three was by far darker than the previous one. Even Exit Wounds, where we lose Tosh and Owen, where the team are left raw and emotionally bleeding from their losses, we get "the end is where we start from", and a moment of reassurance between the three of them where I can really believe that yes, Torchwood will be back on their feet, and the three of them will be back on their feet and eventually recover. CoE leaves us with... nothing, or barely straws to clutch at. If that is not getting darker, I don't know what would.


Not vunerble enough for him to question his actions cause otherwise he would be left long time ago.
He wouldn't have left before he found the Doctor: he needed answers more than anything else at that point. And, by the time he comes back from the Year That Never Was, he's grown attached to the team, and, each in their own way, they help him pick up the pieces and cope with what he needs to do as Captain Harkness, they give him a reference to place his actions in and deal with them without the need to run away from the consequences being so overwhelming...

[Meef]

But Torchwood is tragedy,is drama.
Torchwood has never been tragedy. It has been drama, but never absolute tragedy that broke the characters beyond recovery. Even Owen, after he loses Dianne and becomes, well, suicidal, eventually gets back on his feet, in his own peculiar and fucked up way.


It is a serie which has been like that from the start,there was always a loss wether it was within Torchwood or because of the actions from Torchwood.
Series 3 wasn`t much darker then the other 2 series,I mean don`t tell me that the episode with the canibals was fun to watch.
The only thing what was different was that while there was an alien involved,the other enemy was the goverment.
Who was willing to use children and who were willing to detroy the one thing which could have helped them sooner
That and the fact that it involved children was what made it different..
So,for me personally I don`t see what different Torchwood was in series 3 comparing to series 1 and 2.
Well, I don't agree with that at all. Series three was by far darker than the previous one. Even Exit Wounds, where we lose Tosh and Owen, where the team are left raw and emotionally bleeding from their losses, we get "the end is where we start from", and a moment of reassurance between the three of them where I can really believe that yes, Torchwood will be back on their feet, and the three of them will be back on their feet and eventually recover. CoE leaves us with... nothing, or barely straws to clutch at. If that is not getting darker, I don't know what would.


Not vunerble enough for him to question his actions cause otherwise he would be left long time ago.
He wouldn't have left before he found the Doctor: he needed answers more than anything else at that point. And, by the time he comes back from the Year That Never Was, he's grown attached to the team, and, each in their own way, they help him pick up the pieces and cope with what he needs to do as Captain Harkness, they give him a reference to place his actions in and deal with them without the need to run away from the consequences being so overwhelming...[/quote

I agree with Gisy here, It has had a dark tragic theme since the beginning. I had to say it but Countrycide and small worlds. and alot of the first season. Adam and Adrift in the second season. Is it only not tragic when not a main character dies? But if a main character dies it is tragic? Or is all death just not part of Science Fiction? I saw no ray of hope for Jasmine's mom.

[Banshee]

I agree with Gisy here, It has had a dark tragic theme since the beginning. I had to say it but Countrycide and small worlds. and alot of the first season. Adam and Adrift in the second season. Is it only not tragic when not a main character dies? But if a main character dies it is tragic? Or is all death just not part of Science Fiction? I saw no ray of hope for Jasmine's mom.

Well, we seem to have very different definitions of tragedy, and of science fiction, by the look of it.

Countricide is a dark episode, it shows us a very dark side of human nature, but also some moments of mercy. Small Worlds is tragic in its own way, but there is something in it that assures me that life goes on, which CoE lacks completely. And, if i recall correctly, from the Torchwood Archives, Jasmine's mum, for example, was offered (or given) retcon, same as Jonah's mum in Adrift, who I believe refused to take it, making it her choice to live with the memories. One can't grieve what one can't remember (paraphrasing from and SG-1 episode). Adam is dark in the sense tha it brings up the frailty of the human mind, and shows us a different side of the characters that we know will never be, in some cases for the better, in others for the worse. But then again, they all forget, and you can't mourn what you don't remember.

There is darkness, but there is always hope and comfort, sometimes more than others, sometimes for all, sometimes for some. But nothing even remotely on the scale of emotional devastation that Ianto's death, and, even more, Day 5, leave us, or at least me, in.

[nightowl]

I can't see Jack leaving if Ianto were still alive - short of Ianto totally rejecting him for what he did, and that would have been out of character for Ianto to do so.

I also don't think Jack can stop himself from caring for people. He can't go back to that self centered con man. He's past that. And while he can say he won't care for people, it's not something you can stop yourself from doing, even if you want it. That's why it hurts so much. You see it time and again - in the past, with his daughter, with Alex and the team, and with the present team. Especially with this team he built himself, creating a TW that was in the Doctor's honor to make it a better place to help humanity - he opened himself wide open for getting hurt.

And that's what brings him to where he was - caring so much for people that each of their deaths were like cutting parts of his heart out. He is soul wounded by what happened. And even then, he didn't run right away. He walked the planet for 6 months, and couldn't find an answer.

There are plenty of Jack stories to go, we just have to wait and see where the journey will take him.

[CLay]

while i can't sleep i was gathering my thoughts a little and will try to explain again, what my personal problem with COE is, now with a few more words, for those who are interested.
(it's really hard for me to express in a foreign language what i could barely put in german, so please don't get annoyed with me.)

i have to say, again, that i think COE is brilliant
(i see some flaws, but they are of no importance for what i'm trying to say here. neither are the things happening to characters (getting over it), decisions they make, they really hold no relevance to my point (though i can't say i wasn't annoyed at some points, but i can discuss that in other places). i'm talking in general.)

what i really didn't like, was how the nature of the show was changed.
i happily watch episodes from season 1+2 for the thousandth time, while i don't feel the urge to watch COE again. because to me, it feels like some random science fiction tv-event-thingy. a good one, though, but somehow not connected to the show i entitled my favorite show for the last two years. the more it progressed, the less it felt right to me.

now coming to the drama/dark topic. you're all right, it always was. but still, it was different (still talking my opinion, just a reminder).
it was weird, silly and naive by times, it didn't take everything so earnestly, especially not itself.
and here kicks in: event-tv. they took it to a level TOO big, TOO serious, TOO close. call me modest, but that is much TOO.
yeah, it made a great event, but for me, it's a little apart from the rest, it stands for itself. that's a good thing.

just not for me. for me it became a little more ordinary with a little less magic.

[nightowl]

Now that's interesting - it got too big and too dark too fast. So, if there was a 3rd season that was gradually more dark leading to the 4th as COE, would that have made a difference?

Just curious, because it's an interesting thought that you have there. And I think you do articulate what you are trying to say, Cora, so the language isn't a barrier.

In the interview section there's a link to an interview with RTD where they ask him about fan input and reactions. It looks like he doesn't let that affect him, and in fact personally doesn't get as involved in his own characters other than in the moment he is writing them. So for him it seems to be the overall arc story and it seems he has a definite plan in mind for where he wants Jack and how he needs to get him to that place.

[nikkonekko]

while i can't sleep i was gathering my thoughts a little and will try to explain again, what my personal problem with COE is, now with a few more words, for those who are interested.
(it's really hard for me to express in a foreign language what i could barely put in german, so please don't get annoyed with me.)

i have to say, again, that i think COE is brilliant
(i see some flaws, but they are of no importance for what i'm trying to say here. neither are the things happening to characters (getting over it), decisions they make, they really hold no relevance to my point (though i can't say i wasn't annoyed at some points, but i can discuss that in other places). i'm talking in general.)

what i really didn't like, was how the nature of the show was changed.
i happily watch episodes from season 1+2 for the thousandth time, while i don't feel the urge to watch COE again. because to me, it feels like some random science fiction tv-event-thingy. a good one, though, but somehow not connected to the show i entitled my favorite show for the last two years. the more it progressed, the less it felt right to me.

now coming to the drama/dark topic. you're all right, it always was. but still, it was different (still talking my opinion, just a reminder).
it was weird, silly and naive by times, it didn't take everything so earnestly, especially not itself.
and here kicks in: event-tv. they took it to a level TOO big, TOO serious, TOO close. call me modest, but that is much TOO.
yeah, it made a great event, but for me, it's a little apart from the rest, it stands for itself. that's a good thing.

just not for me. for me it became a little more ordinary with a little less magic.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with everything you say. COE was very good but not what I was waiting for. I was disappointed because I waited 18 months to see "more" of the show I loved. A show that was fun because the wheels were a little wobbly at hight speeds. Instead I was given a blockbuster movie I didn't plan on watching. My personal analogy to explain this disappointment is this. For years I went to a little ski resort near Lake Tahoe. It was small, the lodging was a little run down and the food was terrible. But it was great skiing and very peaceful. Then one year I showed up looking forward to a holiday in a comfortable familiar setting. The place had completely changed, they added hotels, restaurants, and an ice rink. It was beautiful and had everything a skier would want, but I hated it. That's how I feel about COE. Like you said, it was too big, too serious.

[Meef]

The fact is the COE isn't going to change. It is what it is. We are spinning around in circles saying things that won't change what is done. You are allowed to be upset, and even pleased with the show. But it will still remain what it is. If it is unsettling don't watch it again. Never watch anything Torchwood again or that RTD puts out. I do wonder how many of you will tune in a four season just out of curiosity. I for one will do it because no matter what I will support this show. COE is the most amazing Science Fiction story that has been out in a long time. It is a break through into a new wave of TV writing. Every decade has it's jewel in TV Maybe now we will have some real writing in stead of old ideas being revamped. Torchwood is the wave of the future. COE doubly so.

[CLay]

Now that's interesting - it got too big and too dark too fast. So, if there was a 3rd season that was gradually more dark leading to the 4th as COE, would that have made a difference?

yeah, maybe that would have made some difference, as there would be more time to become accustomed to a new tone. as personally, i don't like drastic changes like that, especially not in something that is meant for recreational use.
clearly i can't tell it for sure, as it didn't happen that way.


I was disappointed because I waited 18 months to see "more" of the show I loved. A show that was fun because the wheels were a little wobbly at hight speeds. Instead I was given a blockbuster movie I didn't plan on watching.
damn, i could have put it that simple :laugh:
though it was still great to watch for me.


The fact is the COE isn't going to change. It is what it is. We are spinning around in circles saying things that won't change what is done. You are allowed to be upset, and even pleased with the show. But it will still remain what it is. If it is unsettling don't watch it again. Never watch anything Torchwood again or that RTD puts out. I do wonder how many of you will tune in a four season just out of curiosity. I for one will do it because no matter what I will support this show. COE is the most amazing Science Fiction story that has been out in a long time. It is a break through into a new wave of TV writing. Every decade has it's jewel in TV Maybe now we will have some real writing in stead of old ideas being revamped. Torchwood is the wave of the future. COE doubly so.
you seem to think i hate it. that's not true. seen for itself i really love it, it's just irritating to get something so unexpected, when you were desperately waiting for something you liked the way it was.
and surely i will watch whatever will come, i'm not scared away that easily.
yeah, maybe the discussion is pointless, but i've done worse things to waste my time on.

[jonas-baby]

I liked the declassified,
I however was disappointed by no Bloopers!
Or commentries!

[gisyl]

what i really didn't like, was how the nature of the show was changed.
It hasn`t changed,it has evolved which a natural thing.
I mean,maybe it`s because I feel that Torchwood should be the more darker serie in the Torchwood series,but I still don`t see how much different series 3 is different from series 1 and 2.
Yes,1 and 2 were 13 episodes and this was one story in 5 episodes which is why it was more fast paced then normal but other then that,Torchwood has always been and always will be darker.

[* laurie *]

The fact is the COE isn't going to change. It is what it is. We are spinning around in circles saying things that won't change what is done. You are allowed to be upset, and even pleased with the show. But it will still remain what it is. If it is unsettling don't watch it again. Never watch anything Torchwood again or that RTD puts out. I do wonder how many of you will tune in a four season just out of curiosity. I for one will do it because no matter what I will support this show. COE is the most amazing Science Fiction story that has been out in a long time. It is a break through into a new wave of TV writing. Every decade has it's jewel in TV Maybe now we will have some real writing in stead of old ideas being revamped. Torchwood is the wave of the future. COE doubly so.

well said, fair enough if people didnt like it it'd be a boring world if people didnt have different opinions, and fair enough if people loved it (which i did), but i totally agree with you meef i thought it was one of the most amazing dramas iv seen in ages if not ever and alot of people and i mean reviewers and people like that seem to have the same opinion which is brilliant! it put itv to shame :laugh:, and i think torchwoods made alot! of new fans after it which is a great thing for the show, and i for one will definetly be watching a fourth series if it happens and i think alot more people will too as i feel its gained alot of new fans but also lost a few as well sadly

[CLay]

what i really didn't like, was how the nature of the show was changed.
It hasn`t changed,it has evolved which a natural thing.
I mean,maybe it`s because I feel that Torchwood should be the more darker serie in the Torchwood series,but I still don`t see how much different series 3 is different from series 1 and 2.
Yes,1 and 2 were 13 episodes and this was one story in 5 episodes which is why it was more fast paced then normal but other then that,Torchwood has always been and always will be darker.
hm, like i said, i know that it used to be dark. if i wouldn't like that, i would've never watched more than a few episodes.
dark is fine with me, what i'm getting at is more about that unique quirky charm i missed a little.
also, i feel that dark ? serious (and, no, not speaking about storylines etc. speaking about an overall keynote).

[Meef]

Now that's interesting - it got too big and too dark too fast. So, if there was a 3rd season that was gradually more dark leading to the 4th as COE, would that have made a difference?

yeah, maybe that would have made some difference, as there would be more time to become accustomed to a new tone. as personally, i don't like drastic changes like that, especially not in something that is meant for recreational use.
clearly i can't tell it for sure, as it didn't happen that way.


I was disappointed because I waited 18 months to see "more" of the show I loved. A show that was fun because the wheels were a little wobbly at hight speeds. Instead I was given a blockbuster movie I didn't plan on watching.
damn, i could have put it that simple :laugh:
though it was still great to watch for me.


The fact is the COE isn't going to change. It is what it is. We are spinning around in circles saying things that won't change what is done. You are allowed to be upset, and even pleased with the show. But it will still remain what it is. If it is unsettling don't watch it again. Never watch anything Torchwood again or that RTD puts out. I do wonder how many of you will tune in a four season just out of curiosity. I for one will do it because no matter what I will support this show. COE is the most amazing Science Fiction story that has been out in a long time. It is a break through into a new wave of TV writing. Every decade has it's jewel in TV Maybe now we will have some real writing in stead of old ideas being revamped. Torchwood is the wave of the future. COE doubly so.
you seem to think i hate it. that's not true. seen for itself i really love it, it's just irritating to get something so unexpected, when you were desperately waiting for something you liked the way it was.
and surely i will watch whatever will come, i'm not scared away that easily.
yeah, maybe the discussion is pointless, but i've done worse things to waste my time on.

Sorry Clay I didn't mean for that to come out that way. :hugs: I understand where you are coming from. Please don't be mad at me.

[CLay]

nah, never. we're fine and stuff :hugs:
just tryin not to get seriously misread.

[gisyl]

hm, like i said, i know that it used to be dark. if i wouldn't like that, i would've never watched more than a few episodes.
dark is fine with me, what i'm getting at is more about that unique quirky charm i missed a little.
also, i feel that dark ? serious (and, no, not speaking about storylines etc. speaking about an overall keynote)
Ah,well I admit that i`m suprised that people say it is dark while it always has been dark.
To me series 3 was not very much different because it had the other things in it which the other series had aswell.
What was different for me was that there were more emotions involved and that because of the fast pace it was more intens
But I think that you get that because of the format and because that was more the story.

Completly off topic but I never had a lenghty discussion about a serie like this,it`s great to see that there are so much different views on one serie :good:

[Banshee]

And even then, he didn't run right away. He walked the planet for 6 months, and couldn't find an answer.
He didn't leave the planet earlier because he couldn't. He didn't have is Vortex Manipulator. I think it took him six months to be able to look at Gwen again, and he only did so because he really needed to get away, and she would be the one to know if the wriststrap had been found


what i really didn't like, was how the nature of the show was changed.
i happily watch episodes from season 1+2 for the thousandth time, while i don't feel the urge to watch COE again. because to me, it feels like some random science fiction tv-event-thingy. a good one, though, but somehow not connected to the show i entitled my favorite show for the last two years. the more it progressed, the less it felt right to me.
Exactly! As scifi, it was good, great even if I try not to think of the plotholes. But, it isn't Torchwood as we know it, and love it. I have the same problem: I can rewatch S1 and S2 to death, I probably know the whole bloody thing by heart by now. But, CoE? No thanks. If I want tragedy, I watch the news.


now coming to the drama/dark topic. you're all right, it always was. but still, it was different (still talking my opinion, just a reminder).
it was weird, silly and naive by times, it didn't take everything so earnestly, especially not itself.
and here kicks in: event-tv. they took it to a level TOO big, TOO serious, TOO close. call me modest, but that is much TOO.
yeah, it made a great event, but for me, it's a little apart from the rest, it stands for itself. that's a good thing.

just not for me. for me it became a little more ordinary with a little less magic.
Precisely. If it had been a standalone storyline, with its own characters and such, I would have loved it. But it doesn't sit well with Torchwood as we know it. It changes too much, and goes in a direction that doesn't really feel like Torchwood anymore.


I understand what you are saying and I agree with everything you say. COE was very good but not what I was waiting for. I was disappointed because I waited 18 months to see "more" of the show I loved. A show that was fun because the wheels were a little wobbly at hight speeds. Instead I was given a blockbuster movie I didn't plan on watching. My personal analogy to explain this disappointment is this. For years I went to a little ski resort near Lake Tahoe. It was small, the lodging was a little run down and the food was terrible. But it was great skiing and very peaceful. Then one year I showed up looking forward to a holiday in a comfortable familiar setting. The place had completely changed, they added hotels, restaurants, and an ice rink. It was beautiful and had everything a skier would want, but I hated it. That's how I feel about COE. Like you said, it was too big, too serious.
:clapper: Thank you for that, it is exactly how I feel! 18 months waiting for more Torchwood, being promised we would love it... And then, well, no, I don't really like it, because it isn't Torchwood as we know it!


The fact is the COE isn't going to change. It is what it is. We are spinning around in circles saying things that won't change what is done.
I thought that was the whole point of discussing things: discussing them, whether they have any effect or not. If we were to limit discussions to things we may have some influence on, we'd be running short of debate topics pretty fast, don't you think?


It hasn`t changed,it has evolved which a natural thing.
My personal experience in fandom is that, when shows evolve naturally, the fandom goes along with the changes quite easily. There are plenty of shows that run from seasons on end, that I always have a laugh when going back to the first seasons because they are nothing like what I remember of them, which is generally the last season or two. Characters change and grow, some stay, some go, but if it happens organically, it tends to be barely noticeable. Well, ok, maybe noticeable, but not earthshattering. Which is exactly what we get with CoE. Something that departs, at least in tone, from the show I've been watching for the last couple of seasons, that is so blatantly different that I can't help but be shocked at it. So, evolution? Maybe, but highly accelerated. Which isn't always a good thing.

*makes sure to click "Submit" instead of "Preview"* I spend the whole day wondering where "that post I made in the morning" went, then realized I hadn't clicked submit :bangheaddesk1:

[Meef]

Banshee did you ever watch Babylon 5 or Far scape, if not I suggest you do. I think the point I was trying to make is that most of the viewers despite the disagreement with COE, which I felt part 5 had to be the best bit ever, will watch a four season of Torchwood. For it to maintain the same ratio of views for 5 nights straight shows you how it panned out.

Getting back to Far scape and B5 I use these as examples because on many occasions they stepped away from the light and left us with no hope. One episode of B5 dealt with a child that was sick. He was not human so the Dr Franklin couldn't convince the parents to have a simple operation done to save him. Steven was close to the boy and didn't want to see him die. Despite all efforts the parents couldn't break with their religion and allow the boy to live. In the end Steven preformed the operation, and the parents thanked him, removing the boy from the doctor's care and giving him his new traveling rope. Later Steve found out that the rope was worn to return to the egg. He found the parents hunch over the boys body, they killed him because he was no longer of the egg, he was evil.

That is a Science Fiction story that has no ray of hope, as did most of the series. When something got fixed something else got broke.

Farscape had much of the same undertone. In the end very few characters remained alive. COE has joined the ranks of highly popular extremely amazing Science Fiction. Which is dark and leaves us with out much choice.

Jack did the right thing. The next question is, Since you are a writer Banshee, and I mean this with the greatest of respect, how would you have written the outcome in COE, what would you have done to make it less tragic and bleak. Anyone else have any suggestions or ideas. Really I mean no offense, I just curious to what others would have done to make it a little less upsetting. I mean this the greatest of respect and sincerity. :hugs:

[Banshee]

Banshee did you ever watch Babylon 5 or Far scape
I did watch some Babylon 5 (got axed where I lived halfway through a season, as if having it in the wee hours of the morning hadn't been bad enough), but I've never watched Farscape (though I have it in the pipeline of shows to watch). I'm more a Stargate/Star Trek/Dune/Classic-scifi-made-movie fan myself. Confession of the day, yes, I've read all the Dune novels... even the ones that require reading three times before they start making sense, even after the prequels. And, in my opinion, there are some scarily dark movies out there based, for example, in the very interesting (and very much fucked up) musings of Philip K. Dick and the likes. "Impostor" comes to mind, don't know if you've seen it. So, I would like to think I have quite a few references in what could be considered "dark scifi".


Jack did the right thing. The next question is, Since you are a writer Banshee, and I mean this with the greatest of respect, how would you have written the outcome in COE, what would you have done to make it less tragic and bleak. Anyone else have any suggestions or ideas. Really I mean no offense, I just curious to what others would have done to make it a little less upsetting. I mean this the greatest of respect and sincerity. :hugs:

Yep, Jack did the right. Well, the way I see it, Captain Harkness did the right, as he always does: he saved the word. Jack gets to pay the price for that decision.

How I would write it depends on what you consider the outcome in CoE. If you are referring to Steven being sacrificed to save the children, and Jack leaving the planet, I did outline a couple of ideas (and I mean outline, I didn't really elaborate) on my original post, if I remember correctly, definitely at my LJ if they aren't in the post. The fact that those ideas came to mind is precisely what prompted me to write this post in the first place. If you define the outcome of CoE as some others have done in several separate reaction posts all over the place, as "making it more palatable for the mainstream audience and removing anything that the core, "cult" fans loved in the show but may not sit well with the mainstream, occasional viewer", I'm afraid I'm not even going to enter that debate, because I don't believe anyone can do that to a show and have it survive without transfroming it into something completely different from what it originally was. If you give me another definition of "the outcome of CoE", I may be able to think of some other way to give you that, without breaking the whole universe to pieces...

I do have it in mind to rewrite the end of Day 4 (from the moment they kickstart the "plan") and Day 5, but I'm not sure I can stomach it at the moment, so it may take a while before I actually do it. Besides, I'm currently busy trying to write some comfort!fic for Jack, which I wasn't planning on doing, and is dragging on longer than I expected because he's way past fixing and healing at the moment. And, besides, the more I think about rewriting it, the more plotholes/OOC reactions I find, so I'm getting the feeling that when I get around to rewriting, it'll be a lot of work. Well, or not that much: closing a couple of huge plot holes, the whole story becomes "yet another day at Torchwood Cardiff", but I guess that wouldn't have been interesting as a show, for a lot of people...

[nikkonekko]

Meef, excuse me for barging into the conversation. But you are exactly on point in bringing up Farscape. I tuned in to Farscape from the very beginning and devotedly followed it. Like you said shows evolve and for me Farscape, evolved away from the show I loved. I stopped watching it eventually. I guess COE just did it in a space of a week.

As far as shows evolving, there is a tipping point beyond which it becomes a different show. I think TW went over the tipping point for some viewers.

[spoiler:3fr5b6n4]Now if they had killed Ianto and not blown up the Hub there is a chance i 'd still watch. Or if they let everyone lived and blew up the Hub, I'd still watch. I'd even watch if only Ianto and Gwen were left. But this has been too much.[/spoiler:3fr5b6n4]

[mndbnks]

The main thing that attracted me in the beginning, the openness and way they mostly treated alternate sexuality as normal, without putting a big spotlight on it (realistic or not it sends a positive message IMHO)... gotta admit I'm wondering if that aspect of the show is gone. Guess I'll have to wait and see. If so... that's truly a shame and makes me sad.

Well, you are not the only one that valued Torchwood for the lack of, and sometimes even the dislike it showed of, labels and categories. Neither are you the only one wondering where the hell that openness and acceptance went in CoE, and where it would be if we got a season 4. There is a lot of ranting going on in LJ at the moment, on different fronts, about all the cliches that CoE happened to bring together, about characters and their sexuality, and how it all affects/is affected by the plot. If anybody is interested, I can provide links...

I also heard that this is a lift from Quartermass. The man has to sacrifice his grandson to save the children etc. I can't remember since I haven't seen it. But seriously it was almost like it was rushed. Like they just said in the board room. What do we do with this ending hmm lets just have Jack say well lets kill my poor grandson. I do like RTD don't get me wrong, he's into the shock factor (it's cool every once in a while, but all the time is annoying as hell) it's like it's his crutch. I also got annoyed with Whedon with this in both Buffy and Angel.

[mndbnks]

There's a wealth of people to choose from in terms of staff. As has been mentioned elsewhere, there's Johnson who could be an asset now that she's not blindly following orders and perhaps will think for herself. I personally would find it reprehensible for Dekker to be chosen since there is something so evil and smarmy about that man, but he would certainly have the computer skills if he had hacked into the TW mainframe like he said he had.

There's also Mickey, and others like him out there. All people who could step in on the rebuilding. So it's not impossible.

I think it's a disservice to discount Gwen's capabilities at this point.

Dekker reminded me of a more sinister form of Villa from Blake's 7. That whole all you have to do is get back and watch etc. was so Villa, but to a creepy extent.

[gisyl]

The whole point of series 3 was to make an impact and they did that in a big way.
Let me hold it close to me,but to me Torchwood isn`t about comfort or about happy go luck things.
It is the darker side,it is the mystery of things.
I watch doctor who for the more or less happy endings(which also not always happen) and because it is more light.
But I watch Torchwood for the more darkness,for the more adult things,so to say.

[libraryelf]

Why couldn't they have had a small moment for Jack and Ianto after Rhys said the beans were almost done, they could have slip away to a dark corner or outside. When Rhys turned around they would not have been there. Alice didn't use hher head either. When she could not get a hold of Jack, she should have had emergency plan ready, sounded like her mother would have. At least we got to see Jack naked several times, even if it was pixeled out. We also got a naked look at Ianto's brother-in-law. He sent his wife down to see what trouble was the door. What a man. Thing about Ianto's dad letting go and Ianto breaking his leg, his sister said he should have held on tighter. That sounded a bit like Jack and Grey, if Grey held on tighter or hadn't let go of Jack's hand, he might not have been captured. Always holes in plots. I still have two more episodes to go, the two that are going to make me cry. Hopefully no storms tonight to knock out the power.

Sorry left out a word.

[owlpost1992]

The whole point of series 3 was to make an impact and they did that in a big way.

Oh yes, they managed to kill Jack more times in 5 days then in 26 episodes by the time Clem shot Jack I was bored, only Jack and Ianto's interaction when Jack revived saved that scene. Jack being buried alive was just nicking buried alive by Gray and wasn't shocking as Jack had survived that already.

Ianto's death was like Final Destination. He survived Canary Wharf and flourished in Cardiff, the one time he went back to London and a high rise office block and he dies, Canary Wharf gets him finally.

Rupesh's death was a disappointment more he died then he shot Jack, he would make a yummy addition, Frobisher killing his family I saw it coming as soon as I knew he'd have to kill his family to protect them.

[gisyl]

Oh yes, they managed to kill Jack more times in 5 days then in 26 episodes by the time Clem shot Jack I was bored, only Jack and Ianto's interaction when Jack revived saved that scene. Jack being buried alive was just nicking buried alive by Gray and wasn't shocking as Jack had survived that already.

Ianto's death was like Final Destination. He survived Canary Wharf and flourished in Cardiff, the one time he went back to London and a high rise office block and he dies, Canary Wharf gets him finally.

Rupesh's death was a disappointment more he died then he shot Jack, he would make a yummy addition, Frobisher killing his family I saw it coming as soon as I knew he'd have to kill his family to protect them.
I can see why for some fans it would become boring but let`s face it they did have a high number of viewers and most of them are likely the average ones.
In that perspective they did made an impact.

[owlpost1992]

Oh yes, they managed to kill Jack more times in 5 days then in 26 episodes by the time Clem shot Jack I was bored, only Jack and Ianto's interaction when Jack revived saved that scene. Jack being buried alive was just nicking buried alive by Gray and wasn't shocking as Jack had survived that already.

Ianto's death was like Final Destination. He survived Canary Wharf and flourished in Cardiff, the one time he went back to London and a high rise office block and he dies, Canary Wharf gets him finally.

Rupesh's death was a disappointment more he died then he shot Jack, he would make a yummy addition, Frobisher killing his family I saw it coming as soon as I knew he'd have to kill his family to protect them.
I can see why for some fans it would become boring but let`s face it they did have a high number of viewers and most of them are likely the average ones.
In that perspective they did made an impact.

It was Torchwood or die of boredom. Really there wasn't much on TV that wasn't reality TV or a repeat.

[gisyl]

t was Torchwood or die of boredom. Really there wasn't much on TV that wasn't reality TV or a repeat.
Wether you were bored or hated,still doesn`t take away the fact that they did have a high numbers on all 5 days.
Thus they made the impact they wanted
If people would have hate it,they would have turned it off which didn`t happen.
Besides,nobody is forced to watch something they don`t want to.

[* laurie *]

t was Torchwood or die of boredom. Really there wasn't much on TV that wasn't reality TV or a repeat.
Wether you were bored or hated,still doesn`t take away the fact that they did have a high numbers on all 5 days.
Thus they made the impact they wanted
If people would have hate it,they would have turned it off which didn`t happen.
Besides,nobody is forced to watch something they don`t want to.

i agree with gisyl, it had high ratings for every episode, people kept tuning in so it means something! and these days wot with on demand on our tellys and dvds and the number of channels people have, people dont keep watching something for the sake of it or because theres nothing else on!

[Meef]

t was Torchwood or die of boredom. Really there wasn't much on TV that wasn't reality TV or a repeat.
Wether you were bored or hated,still doesn`t take away the fact that they did have a high numbers on all 5 days.
Thus they made the impact they wanted
If people would have hate it,they would have turned it off which didn`t happen.
Besides,nobody is forced to watch something they don`t want to.

i agree with gisyl, it had high ratings for every episode, people kept tuning in so it means something! and these days wot with on demand on our tellys and dvds and the number of channels people have, people dont keep watching something for the sake of it or because theres nothing else on!

Ditto but you all ready know how I feel. Besides feel like following Laurie for awhile. Where are we posting next! :laugh: