Seriously disappointed...

[Captain James Harper]

Okay, I know that it's no secret that I'm no fan of RTD's writing, but Children of Earth was a let down in so many ways, it's almost unbelievable...
[spoiler:2gnuyjzc]Now, there were aspects of the first few episodes which I did like, such as the introduction of Ianto's family, who were actually engaging and believable as a family unit of that particular social class. The introduction of Jack's family, on the other hand, completely farcical and unbelievable. Had they been introduced, say, during season two, then there might have been some kind of viewer connection, but instead, I felt them to simply be 'tacked on' characters, with the expectation that people would simply accept them as shown...
The continued fetish for showing Jack in WWII clothing has now well and truly worn thin to the point of implausibility. Considering that Jack (and everything with him) was blown up, would it not have been more plausible for Ianto to have simply acquired whatever clothes he could which would fit, rather than going out of his way to recreate Jack's wardrobe down to almost every detail? (he did get a new watch to wear, rather than his old Rolex :D ) I've never liked Jack's wardrobe in Torchwood, given how he used to dress while travelling with the Doctor. While I can imagine a time traveller wearing clothes from a favorite time period, the idea that Jack did so ever since WWII is bordering on the implausible...
Then there's the matter of Jack's regeneration... Was it a case of the rest of his body being totally destroyed beyond the point of being able to re-configure, or, would things like legs, entrails etc left in the rubble also regenerate, as happened with his arm and head? Or, did it have to be several pieces in sufficient proximity to create the 'attraction' for the regeneration to begin? It wouldn't've hurt for there to have been some kind of reference to it...
The re-appearance of the vortex manipulator was totally unsatisfactory. Okay, maybe the device's casing is made from Adamantium, or some similarly indestructible material, but, why did Gwen and Reese have to go dig it out of the rubble of the Hub? Why couldn't Jack just do it himself? (as a side note, £50 is pretty good for custom leatherwork like that :D ) I'd've much rather if RTD had made reference to Jack's VM being destroyed when he got blown up, and then have him having to dig Gray out of cold storage to take his. It certainly would have been more plausible than what was shown... On that train of thought, what happened to Gray, the weevils and all the other nasties held in the vaults of the Hub? Were they also blown to pieces, or are there now more weevils on the loose in Cardiff?
I can't see Torchwood returning, as the only remaining member is Gwen... Reece was only a 'part-timer', and Jack's decided to run away... Nice going, RTD, you've successfully taken one of the most popular characters in the UK, and turned him into a monster who sacrifices his own grandchild 'for the greater good', withholds his previously shown ability to 'transfer life' (so could've at least brought the poor kid back) and then, having spent 6 months letting Gwen get his Vortex Manipulator back, decides to simply run away. Jack's now no better as a person, than he was before he first met the Doctor. Well done, RTD, I don't know how you're going to have Jack redeem himself from this...
At least Ianto's dead. I never liked him as a character, he always seemed so pointless to the Torchwood team, behaved inappropriately during times of crisis, and finally revealed to have lied to absolutely everyone who cared for him about his past. The episode showing how Ianto got hooked up with Torchwood 3... Was he just manipulating Jack all along so he could use the facility to store Lisa? At least at his end though, he realized that he really was just Jack's (to quote Owen) "part time shag", as Jack never returned the "I love you." Normally, I'd've felt sorry for such an event, but Ianto, after what his sister told Gwen, and all the lies he must have told over the years, I can only feel that he got the death he deserved.[/spoiler:2gnuyjzc]

Other aspects of the writing, actually impressed me. As a political commentary, it was a very powerful piece of writing, and it indeed poses the question, is this the kind of world that anyone would actually want to bring a child into? (My wife and I have recently come to the conclusion that we don't, so it was interesting to see that reinforced thus...) It poses the question is this really a world worth saving? Are politicians really acting in our best interests, or just a bunch of slimy politicos desperate to use spin and subterfuge to save their own worthless hides...

I don't normally like RTD's writing, and I think it sadly ironic that I appreciated Children of Earth more as a political commentary, than as a piece of fictional writing, which, when viewed from that context, made numerous homages to other sci-fi shows, introduced too many new characters to be sympathetic, changed the very nature of well established characters in a seriously negative way, left several plot points unexplored, and ultimately, left viewers dissatisfied...

Oh well, as Ned Kelly said, "Such is life..."

[piper1921]

i thought it was a let down as well. how could he let Ianto die he was the best. and jack can,t know what to do with out him. but he could come back in season four in there ask him too there did it with owen there might do with ianto.

[Jakx 01]

Wow, Captain Harper, you really didn`t like it did you!

[spoiler:3lccjc7o]From what I have seen in various postings around the internet, the reason that "some" veiwers are disatisfied is because Ianto is killed off, yet that is the one thing you seemed glad about.

To be honest, I disagree with virtually everything in your review but as I`m still a newby here, I don`t think I`ve yet earned the right to square up to a major debate with an established poster.[/spoiler:3lccjc7o]

[Roqui]

Wow, Captain Harper, you really didn`t like it did you!

[spoiler:3tefwya9]From what I have seen in various postings around the internet, the reason that "some" veiwers are disatisfied is because Ianto is killed off, yet that is the one thing you seemed glad about.

To be honest, I disagree with virtually everything in your review but as I`m still a newby here, I don`t think I`ve yet earned the right to square up to a major debate with an established poster.[/spoiler:3tefwya9]


agreed.

it is interesting that the original poster severely criticised every little tid-bit (even Jack's preference to wear a freaking WWII coat) as being implausible and a case of bad screenwriting, yet...
[spoiler:3tefwya9]... (s)he gladly accepted the reference of Ianto telling a lie about his dad as a bona fide evidence of his supposedly rotten character who as such deserved to die. not only that - his death was in the poster's words a case of good screenwriting? talk about selectiveness![/spoiler:3tefwya9]

[Undead Medic]

Wow, Captain Harper, you really didn't like it did you!


To be honest, I disagree with virtually everything in your review but as I'm still a newby here, I don`t think I've yet earned the right to square up to a major debate with an established poster.

You have just as much right to an opinion as someone who's made thousands of posts. The forum is here for debate and discussion. :grin:

(Provided it's a civilised debate of course :yes: )

[JacksB1tch]

Sorry another new poster, long time viewer,
I know from reading widely on the internet that alot of people are stunned and disappointed with aspects of both Exit wounds and Children of Earth, primarily the deaths of favouriate and established characters. If we look back to how Jack became the leader of Torchwood 3 we find it was out of a massacre. Jacks character has been portrayed as going on for centuries, whether he does in indeed become the face of Boe is another debate. However such a long lifespan would call for a regular turn over of characters and I am aware that these are characters cut down in thier prime, but working for Torwood has never been a normal trouble free day at the office, every character goes to work knowing that thier lives could be in jepody.
Focusing on Jack for a moment if you take the time to re view both Exit wounds and Children of earth and make note of how many times Jack as died or been tortured in such a relatively short space of time, not to mention the death of cherished friends, you could expect something to snap, he may have longevity but he is still mortal. I think this accounts for the unjack emotions seen in the final scene with Steven, I think at this point he is a broken man. Alice has ensured that he has had as little contact with Steven as possible because he is percieved as 'dangerous'. I think he does what he has to do to save the world get out.
I think the character will return, John Borrowman certainly wants to, but I think Jack needs to be healed, any volenteers??????????????

[Caterpillargirl]

but I think Jack needs to be healed, any volenteers??????????????
Pick me!! :laugh2:

[John the Vic]

[spoiler:3tiu5b1b]I take all your points, which I have read carefully.. You obviously have a dislike of RTD's writing, as you have stated, and you also say that you appreciated CoE as a political commentary rather than as a piece of fictional writing.. However, the one thing I must disagree upon is your final three words, "left viewers unsatisfied." While your critical analysis shows that you are unsatisfied, and there may indeed be a numer of others who think the same, I don't think that the number of "unsatisfied viewers" is as high as you seem to suggest.. I have read the posts on various forums concerning CoE, and it is fairly obvious that there are more people who liked it than those who don't.. Yes, I was slightly perturbed at the demise of Ianto, as were others, but heroes come and go, and nothing lasts forever.. My personal view is that Children of Earth ranks as one of the top three science fiction stories ever written.. In regard to whether Torchwood will return, we'll obviously have to wait and see..[/spoiler:3tiu5b1b]

[* laurie *]

i agree with you there john i feel there is more people who liked COE than people who didnt, iv read more positives than negatives i must say and im not just talking about here, and all the reviews in newspapers and on telly were positive (did anyone watch charlie brooker on ch4 he liked it! and hes very critical of everything! usually) i definetly dont think the negative opinions have outweighed the positive ones, because generally its been seen as a success

[John the Vic]

i agree with you there john i feel there is more people who liked COE than people who didnt, iv read more positives than negatives i must say and im not just talking about here, and all the reviews in newspapers and on telly were positive (did anyone watch charlie brooker on ch4 he liked it! and hes very critical of everything! usually) i definetly dont think the negative opinions have outweighed the positive ones, because generally its been seen as a success

I've not heard what Charlie Brooker said, but I can imagine.. Even my wife thought it was fantastic, which is saying something because she normally hates science fiction altogether.. We were both blown away by Peter Capaldi's performance especially..

[* laurie *]

peter capaldi was just stunning i thought, i hope he gets a bafta nod because he defineltly deserves it

[John the Vic]

peter capaldi was just stunning i thought, i hope he gets a bafta nod because he defineltly deserves it

He does indeed.. He is one of our favourite actors of all.. Unless you have already seen it before, take a look at Peter Capaldi's performance as "Vernon/Vera Reynolds" in Prime Suspect 3, from 1993..

(By the way, I see you are in Manchester.. I used to travel in and out of there for well over 20 years when I lived in Buxton..)

[* laurie *]

[quote="* laurie *":114qzg72]peter capaldi was just stunning i thought, i hope he gets a bafta nod because he defineltly deserves it

He does indeed.. He is one of our favourite actors of all.. Unless you have already seen it before, take a look at Peter Capaldi's performance as "Vernon/Vera Reynolds" in Prime Suspect 3, from 1993..

(By the way, I see you are in Manchester.. I used to travel in and out of there for well over 20 years when I lived in Buxton..)
[/quote:114qzg72]

ooh ill look out for that, im defiently a fan of his now and had never seen him in anything before other than doctor who of course, ill be looking out for him in stuff in the future definetly

(and yepp i love manchester lived here all my life, i like buxton too my boyfriends family live in buxton so we go there quite alot)

[John the Vic]

[quote="John the Vic":9lt81i5d][quote="* laurie *":9lt81i5d]peter capaldi was just stunning i thought, i hope he gets a bafta nod because he defineltly deserves it

He does indeed.. He is one of our favourite actors of all.. Unless you have already seen it before, take a look at Peter Capaldi's performance as "Vernon/Vera Reynolds" in Prime Suspect 3, from 1993..

(By the way, I see you are in Manchester.. I used to travel in and out of there for well over 20 years when I lived in Buxton..)
[/quote:9lt81i5d]

ooh ill look out for that, im defiently a fan of his now and had never seen him in anything before other than doctor who of course, ill be looking out for him in stuff in the future definetly

(and yepp i love manchester lived here all my life, i like buxton too my boyfriends family live in buxton so we go there quite alot)[/quote:9lt81i5d]

I lived in Buxton for 44 years, (specifically in Fairfield) but my wife (who comes from Whaley Bridge) and I left there 10 years ago for my work.. We've been in Exeter for 2 years now..

[Coyote Cutie]

peter capaldi was just stunning i thought, i hope he gets a bafta nod because he defineltly deserves it


Yes, I agree with that. He does deserve to receive a BAFTA for his portrayal.

[spoiler:2ijqwkdk]And I agree that Jack has indeed become a broken man. Yes, he has lost many people in his lifetime, but to lose both Ianto and Steven I think is what finally broke him down.[/spoiler:2ijqwkdk]

While I wasn't thrilled with the ending of this mini-series, I do give huge kudos to RTD for what he did in the writing of the series. To me, this is some of his best work.

[websurffer]

[spoiler:2z775odr]I agree with those saying that Jack was broken in large part due to Steven's death and his part in it. It'd be hard on him to be responsible for the death of any child but his own grandson?[/spoiler:2z775odr]

My big beef with it is where was the Doctor? I know that the Doctor doesn't often show up in times of crisis but I feel like one involving all the children of the entire world would be something he would be involved with. Oh well, maybe he was regenerating and breaking my heart all over again.

[dummy1131]

[spoiler:wibse4q4]

Then there's the matter of Jack's regeneration... Was it a case of the rest of his body being totally destroyed beyond the point of being able to re-configure, or, would things like legs, entrails etc left in the rubble also regenerate, as happened with his arm and head? Or, did it have to be several pieces in sufficient proximity to create the 'attraction' for the regeneration to begin? It wouldn't've hurt for there to have been some kind of reference to it...
I was wondering about that myself.
lets say you cut Jack in half straight down the middle, would both halves regenerate creating two Jacks or would only one half regenerate and the other half just did nothing? And if only one half did regenerate, then why not the other half?[/spoiler:wibse4q4]

[dummy1131]

[spoiler:3n0j8jle]I agree with those saying that Jack was broken in large part due to Steven's death and his part in it. It'd be hard on him to be responsible for the death of any child but his own grandson?[/spoiler:3n0j8jle]

My big beef with it is where was the Doctor? I know that the Doctor doesn't often show up in times of crisis but I feel like one involving all the children of the entire world would be something he would be involved with. Oh well, maybe he was regenerating and breaking my heart all over again.
I personally don't have a problem with that. The doctor isn't omnipotent. He travels through time and space and there is a lot of both; basically he can't be everywhere at once.

Besides, it wouldn't be much of a story if it ends “and the doctor showed up and saved the day.”

Also, what Gwen said at the start of day five might be the reason for his absence.

[cwebster]

Well, I loved it. I didn't like [spoiler:35lsudhp]Ianto and Steven's respective deaths...especially Steven's (at least Ianto knew that his life was on the line when he signed up), but if the point of the story is break Jack, it's effective. At least Jack, in sacrificing his grandchild for the 'greater good' (saving 32 MILLION children) had more moral fibre than the politicians who were willing to sacrifice anyone's child but their own.[/spoiler:35lsudhp]

I think RTD explained the regeneration (I'm paraphrasing, can't find the exact quotes) by saying that the cells are attracted to each other, so they would be drawn to the greatest mass. That was painful to watch, btw. Knowing that he feels pain and agony each time he comes back makes me wonder why he hasn't gone around the twist long since.

Sorry the original poster doesn't like the greatcoat. Ianto explained his purchase by saying he'd "missed it". So did I...it's a great look on Jack. The sweatpants really didn't cut it. I see no problem in an iconic character wearing the same item of clothing (especially when it looks so damn sexy)

If (as has been said), there is a 4th season and jack is in it, I'll be watching.

[cwebster]

Hi Captain Harper:
Thought I might as well address the rest of your complaints:

[spoiler:2dt557wa]Don't see why you'd have a problem with Jack having a family. He's been married before (he was waiting for the Doctor for about 137 years) and he's not exactly chaste. He also takes responsibility for people, so his supporting a daughter and grandson is in character.

The Vortex manipulator. Why wouldn't Gwen go looking for it? She's a TW employee and a friend of Jack's. In the 6 months that he's been travelling, I assume she's been overseeing the cleanup at the Hub. Gray was never shown to be a Time Agent, so why would he have a VM? Blast follows the path of least resistance, so I'd think it would travel upwards and along the tunnels. If the vaults were deep enough, they might just be buried in rubble.

What's stopping Jack from coming back? He can go see the Doctor (I hope in DT's last appearance) and unless he kills the Doctor, he can be healed and return. I don't see him as a monster...quite the opposite. He suffered along with his grandson. I see him as a tragic hero.

Don't know where you are getting the idea that Jack didn't love Ianto. A lot of men are incapable of saying those 3 little words. He did the important thing, he showed it. "I take it back" "Not him" "Don't leave me" say "I love you" more effectively than repeating that phrase would have.

The lies about his life that Ianto told Gwen seem in character for someone trying to "better themself'...they weren't the kind that would hurt anyone (unlike the lies about Lisa). He certainly didn't deserve death for them.[/spoiler:2dt557wa]

[Hyenathepirate]

I agree. COE Ruined Torchwood for me. I'm looking at my first two season boxsets and wondering if i'll ever watch them again seeing how things have progressed. Quite literally all the fun and excitement I had when I waited eagerly for COE were obliterated by the series.

I'm not sure I want to see a 4th series after COE, or anything else.

I think that bad decisions have been made about the direction of the series, where it seems that with each season they are trying to end the series completely rather than create a series that can carry on.

I'll explain myself.

[spoiler:6guzleum]When you watch any other series, the characters grow a season builds to a climax but at the end of the day the majority of the characters are redeemed and for the most part still ALIVE.

At the end of COE, we have the HUB destroyed, presumably with Jack's brother along with it, and everyone (or thing) they had in deep storage, or hidden away in the vaults. All their collected alien/supernatural technology, some of which might have actually been useful in combating 456 is just plain gone. I understand Mr Davries wanted to cripple Torchwood whom he felt was too "powerful" with all of their assets, but destroying the HUB was a bit overboard. It's like someone blowing up the TARDIS. Without it, you effectively kill one of the most important characters in the series: the set.

Then there is Ianto's death. And with him really the last of the "anchor" characters in the series. Even in Doctor Who, while they change the Doctor's companion every few series, it's not such a definitive end of things. It would be like killing all of the Doctor's friends and companions slowly over a series, from Ms. Jane to Martha Jones (who also is mysteriously missing on 'holiday' during all the events of COE conveniently, even though with such a situation facing Earth I can't imagine any holiday not being instantly canceled.)

Then, ultimately, Jack loses all redeeming qualities as a character. In the beginning, Captain Jack was a kind of rogue-ish, cavalier, yet charming character, with a devil may care attitude and something of a dark side, similar to what we see in the Doctor at times when we realize how incredibly dangerous this person can be when pushed to their absolute limit. But even then, when all else fails, when the world is in it's most danger, when all the chips are on the table, the Doctor never loses hope and he never ever gives in... and he NEVER sacrifices another innocent. Jack thinks nothing of the sacrifice of his own grandchild and then walks away as much of a scummy character as 456... in a way, worse. Because while 456 was vile and villainous, in the end Jack had to do something even more heinous, made all the more worse by the fact that he's supposed to be the "noble" hero. It would be like Batman snapping a child's neck in order to stop the Joker from spreading some evil virus... No matter how dark of a character Batman is, there is a line he would not cross, and Jack as I see it has no problem crossing even the most taboo of lines, even though in the previous series we are led to believe that there is at LEAST that little shred of humanity still locked away in him regardless of what he has been through, there is at least THAT little bit of "love" and "decency" inside him that redeems him.

The way this series ended, Jack can fly into the sun for all I care and perish, because I don't feel that he tried to find that 'other way' that 11th hour twist to save the world, that selfless sacrifice that would remind us that whatever his demons are, this man is still a savior. The doctor would have sacrificed himself in a heartbeat, walked into that chamber and fought 456 with his bare hands if he had to before sacrificing another living being to stop 456, least of all an innocent child. Jack is IMMORTAL. He's a fixed point in the universe. 456 couldn't kill him. 456 had to have an origin. There had to be some other way. Heck, Jack can call an alien transport ship to pick him up, but he can't use that to find help, to find a race that knows of 456's race or to help intervene?

No, it became clear to me that the reason Jack cannot die is because Jack has no heart to begin with.

I will not be watching a series 4 because there is no reason to. There is no way back for Jack with me, no way to forgive the sins of the past, no redemption great enough. As far as I am concerned, Captain Jack Harkness, and Torchwood, died with little Steven.[/spoiler:6guzleum]

[JUDE]

Really good reply. That is kinda of now I feel about COE.

I really do not understand why RTD did what he did. He created Torchwood and then in one foil swipe he completely destroyed it.

Looking back at the end of "Exit Wounds" whenever the three that survived are packing away Tosh and Owen belonging, even though its sad, Jack says that "the end is were we begin again", so the audience is left with a bit of hope, that no matter what these three characters will fight on. But at the end of COE there is no hope, only complete despair.

[cwebster]

Hi hyenathepirate:

I think you are very wrong and unreasonable ( reasons under the cut)


[spoiler:y1qjhov6]1) the Doctor never loses hope? Did you miss the episode when Jack died the first time?

2) the Doctor never sacrifices another innocent? I thought he sacrificed his entire race?

3) Jack thinks nothing of the sacrifice of his grandchild? Did you actually watch? Look at the pain in his face and the tears in his eyes.

4) it's a bit unreasonable to expect him to find another way when he's only got an hour...and by the time he realizes that it would kill a child he only has 10 minutes to save 32 MILLION children. Do you honestly think that if he'd refused, Johnson wouldn't have simply shot him and sacrificed Steven herself with Dekker's help? I think you expect more than a hero...you are expecting Jack to be a God- and he's not, he's only human. Immortal, but human.

5) What good would killing one member of the 456 do? It's not like Earth has the technology to enable Jack to take the fight to them in 10 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

6) Jack couldn't call a transport ship until 6 MONTHS later when Gwen located his wrist strap in the rubble of the Hub, so no, he couldn't have used that to find help in, let me point out again, 10 minutes.[/spoiler:y1qjhov6]

I do think that each series is designed as a way to end the series...after all, if BBC doesn't decide to pick up a new season, there would be no closure. I like that, because I hate the feeling of being "cliff-hangered".

[Hyenathepirate]

Thanks for the reply cwebster... I always enjoy a good debate.
I have to admit, one of the hallmarks of a great series is when it can promote conversation and variable points of view! By that alone, COE is a success.

But to rebuttal your points, if I may, respectfully (my responses are in yellow-green):

[spoiler:1e2j121t]1) the Doctor never loses hope? Did you miss the episode when Jack died the first time?

Yes I do, but you have to take everything in it's full context. Jack sacrificed himself to buy the Doctor time, and in the end, the Doctor faltered in his hope yes... but that is because for him, the potential destruction of countless lives is not just a trivial matter. His faith in good is tested, but in the end it is restored by Rose. Ultimately he sacrifices HIMSELF in order to save her, which brings in the tenth Doctor. Again, I see this as one of the Doctor's greatest strengths... not failings. He suffers, the Doctor, but in the end is redeemed through his own willingness towards the ultimate good.

2) the Doctor never sacrifices another innocent? I thought he sacrificed his entire race?

We still know virtually nothing about the events in which the Time Lords were completely destroyed, only that the Doctor played a part in it. But to what extent is he truly responsible? He carries a tremendous burden of guilt over it, but that does not necessarily denote some form of direct responsibility. Years of guilt can eat at a person, convincing them that there might have been another way even if the reality is there was not. Was the time lord demise voluntary? Did the other Time Lords know about their sacrifice? Are they even truly "gone"? If anything the universe has taught the Doctor that it still holds many mysteries. He also thought he had destroyed the Daleks in his action, but apparently all manner of beings have survived the "annihalation". In the end though, the Doctor has had to make choices to DEFEND innocents, never sacrifice them. Were the Time Lords truly innocent in the war with that ended their lives? Or were they equally responsible? We simply do not know yet.

3) Jack thinks nothing of the sacrifice of his grandchild? Did you actually watch? Look at the pain in his face and the tears in his eyes.

My problem is not that Jack felt pain, for surely he must have. But my problem is with how much ease he made the decision and carried it out. Just because you commit an act of evil while feeling guilty and terrible about it doesn't excuse the fact that you still acted evilly. I don't feel that Jack tried every other alternative, sought out any other way, anything at all before sacrificing his grandson. Couldn't they have obtained a terminally ill child? Couldn't Jack have tried to use himself first? That was my problem with it. It seemed like Jack just made the decision on the fly, not even taking into consideration any alternatives. The Doctor and honestly the old "Jack" from the first series of Torchwood probably would have NEVER sacrificed a child to beat an enemy. It would have gone against everything he stood for. Even when you consider how he dealt with his brother and John Hart.. (who was also suspiciously absent during this crisis). Sure, I'm sure Jack feels "bad" about what he did, but that doesn't excuse or redeem his decision. It would have been better if he had tried to find any other way and in the end the BOY offered HIMSELF as the only option. "Take me Uncle Jack, use me... it's the only way and you know it!" Instead the kid doesn't even realize whats about to happen to him and that his life is being offered up as an innocent sacrifice to save the human race. And in the end, what did anyone gain? The government still has a lot to answer for in it's actions, 456 may or may NOT be dead (who knows with a creature like that), Torchwood is still obliterated, and there will still be war.

4) it's a bit unreasonable to expect him to find another way when he's only got an hour...and by the time he realizes that it would kill a child he only has 10 minutes to save 32 MILLION children. Do you honestly think that if he'd refused, Johnson wouldn't have simply shot him and sacrificed Steven herself with Dekker's help? I think you expect more than a hero...you are expecting Jack to be a God- and he's not, he's only human. Immortal, but human.

But that is the very MEANING of being a hero! A hero rises to the occasion against insurmountable odds, in the darkest of moments, in the face of hopelessness and finds a way. Johnson couldn't have done it herself. Jack was the only one with the knowledge and ability to pull it off in time. Again, they spent an incredible amount of time running around playing politics instead of working together to resolve a threat. They could have angled for time, they could have stalled. 456 wanted children for drugs. Chances are, 456 would have had to make some concession or risk losing EVERYTHING. It's a high stakes gamble yes, but to willingly sacrifice Steven before trying something, ANYTHING, else just felt cheap and contrived. Maybe I can chalk it up to how the series was written, but it didn't FEEL like a heroic moment, it didn't add to the character of Jack to me, it just made him colder... a man who will simply do what must be done regardless of the consequences to others. I'm not sure I find that an alluring quality in a hero. In the end, the world is saved, but Captain Jack and Torchwood are completely lost. So much for being the last line of defense for humanity, because now there IS no last line of defense, no defenders, and no heroes beyond Rhys and Gwen.

5) What good would killing one member of the 456 do? It's not like Earth has the technology to enable Jack to take the fight to them in 10 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And yet thats exactly what it appears they did. They presumably killed 456. In 10 minutes. And yes it saved millions of lives, but it cost us an innocent one in the process. I'm not sure if thats a good payoff. I'm certainly sure Jack's daughter will never forgive the decision. I think it harkens back to when the government officials were in that room deciding to use EVERYONE else's children for this sacrifice... except THEIR OWN. It shows there are limits to how far someone would go, and when you put your loved ones on the line, it changes the situation dramatically. With nothing else to lose, they might as well have tried a nuclear strike first. Send in a combat team in hazmat suits. Hell, they could have tried trading the atmosphere in the 456's tank, poisoning IT like it wanted to poison US. There were unexplored options from beginning to end, and that makes Jack's sacrifice less noble and far too tragic.

6) Jack couldn't call a transport ship until 6 MONTHS later when Gwen located his wrist strap in the rubble of the Hub, so no, he couldn't have used that to find help in, let me point out again, 10 minutes.

Over the course of the series, Jack spent a great deal of time building up Torchwood and it's assets, stockpiling alien equipment, and preparing for any eventuality. So now we are to believe that he NEVER had a contingency plan for this sort of situation?! What about UNIT or even Sarah Jones? They certainly had a similar level of technology to Torchwood. Mind you, there was still a big fat rift sitting there in Cardiff. All that technology, and they couldn't find any other alternative? Mind you, not just in that last 10 minutes but in the hours leading UP to that moment? And apparently the 456 could have a connection with adults too, as seen by Clem. If they could be connected to him in such a way for 40+ years and then disconnect him, there must have been a way for Jack, who was there at that time then to also be connected. That alternative was never even considered. And why didn't Jack even TRY to go back to the HUB to salvage ANYTHING anyway? They simply gave up on it, outright. Like I said, they didn't look into all options, didn't even try. While that means Jack isnt COMPLETELY at fault, as a self-proclaimed protector of Earth, it should have been his duty to consider the possibility that one day the HUB could be compromised. And in the end he runs away. As if a man who has lived a dozen lifetimes has yet to realize that you can't run away from guilt no matter how far you run.[/spoiler:1e2j121t]

[cwebster]

To respond to a few comments by hyenathepirate...


[spoiler:228dhhl0]3) Not in 10 MINUTES- Steven was the only child around. No, Jack couldn't do it, it had to be a prepubescent child. Jack in Series 1 did sacrifice a child (Small Worlds). Since the wave the other way destroyed Clem, I think the assumption is it killed the 456 race.



4) Even heroes cannot do the impossible. You are asking for a Deus Ex Machina, which would be a cheap get-out-of-jail-free card. THEY may have spent a lot of time running around, but JACK had only an hour or so. They couldn't stall...they had an ultimatum and the government was obeying. I think the whole point was to damage Jack, so that he can save the world and atone for his actions in 1965 by losing his grandson and lover.



5) Of course Jack's daughter will never forgive him. That's the point-he's lost everything. They could have attacked the 456 in the tank, but to what purpose? it wouldn't have stopped the ones overhead. The whole point is that Jack acts differently from the politicians...they will sacrifice everyone but their own families. Jack sacrifices his family for others (rather like God sacrificing his son to save people from their sins). That act is seen as ultimate love, yet when Jack does the same to save 32 million children, he's seen by some as a monster- interesting.




6) If you mean Sarah Jane, she can't get involved as her show is for kids.can't use the Rift- the Hub and it's controls were destroyed in day 1. The ONLY adult connected to the 456 was Clem, because he was meant to be given to them in 1965 but he ran away (they referred to him as "the remnant"). Jack CAN'T be connected...he is WAY beyond prepubescent. Jack couldn't get from London to the wreck of the Hub in 10 minutes. I think you keep forgetting the incredibly short timeframe. There is no time for any of the things you wanted. In approximately one hour, the children will be delivered. The government is not going to stall just because Jack asks them to...it's already in process.

I don't see Jack as running away...just taking time off to mourn. If you've ever lost a loved one, you know it takes a couple of years to heal...he'd only had 6 months (and he'd lost everything). I think/hope he's off to see the Doctor.[/spoiler:228dhhl0]

[duskymaiden]

i was disappointed in the writers portrayal of how the characters reacted and how it was completely wrong with those we have come to know over the past 2 seasons. as a parent i find it abhorant that any parent or grandparent would have sacrificed a child. not even to save 32 million because the 1 in front of you is the one you are looking at and the one you care about. i cannot see how jack arrived at such a decision and i felt then and do now that the writers let jack harkness down because i do not believe he would have made that sacrifice. to me it seemed that the ending of c o e was thown together without giving genuine thought for the characters they had created over the past few months. i cant see either how jack can come back from this. assuming that jack is human the stress of this and the past hundred of years of loss and suffering would break him, possible to the extent if that not even the doctor can fix it. because if he returns to his previous life and his torchood cardiff as if nothing has happened then the writers truely have created a monster.

[Meef]

i was disappointed in the writers portrayal of how the characters reacted and how it was completely wrong with those we have come to know over the past 2 seasons. as a parent i find it abhorant that any parent or grandparent would have sacrificed a child. not even to save 32 million because the 1 in front of you is the one you are looking at and the one you care about. i cannot see how jack arrived at such a decision and i felt then and do now that the writers let jack harkness down because i do not believe he would have made that sacrifice. to me it seemed that the ending of c o e was thown together without giving genuine thought for the characters they had created over the past few months. i cant see either how jack can come back from this. assuming that jack is human the stress of this and the past hundred of years of loss and suffering would break him, possible to the extent if that not even the doctor can fix it. because if he returns to his previous life and his torchood cardiff as if nothing has happened then the writers truely have created a monster.

I understand that as a parent it bothers you. But if it happened in real life what would you do? Was there a call to arms over Sophie's Choice. This is a drama that plays to often in the real world. Maybe not in our part of the world but in less fortunate parts of the world. It is ease to say as a parent, you wouldn't have done what Jack did. You are not faced with that choice. Once again. It was damn good writing to instill such a reaction. Also Jack was given no choice. Would you be able to live with your self as a parent if you child survived and everyone else's didn't. I wouldn't be able to look my child in the eye. Or the rest of the world for that mater. Jack did the right thing. And he will heal. We all do in time. That is human nature or at least we find the strength in time to continue.

[cwebster]

assuming that jack is human the stress of this and the past hundred of years of loss and suffering would break him, possible to the extent if that not even the doctor can fix it

Yes, Jack is human. The whole point was to shatter him. But this is just the start of his journey- he's going to suffer loss over and over again- the pain of being Immortal and losing everyone you love time and time again. I only hope the Doctor can help him...

[cwebster]

as a parent i find it abhorant that any parent or grandparent would have sacrificed a child. not even to save 32 million because the 1 in front of you is the one you are looking at and the one you care about. i cannot see how jack arrived at such a decision and i felt then and do now that the writers let jack harkness down because i do not believe he would have made that sacrifice.

That is the nature of sacrifice. if you do not care, it's no sacrifice. Jack cared about his grandson, and it broke him, but he made the sacrifice and saved 32 million children from a horrible fate. I don't think they let Jack down- if he'd gone out looking for another child because he couldn't bear to sacrifice his grandson, THAT would be abhorrent.

[aamena]

Jack did the right thing. And he will heal. We all do in time. That is human nature or at least we find the strength in time to continue.

So true. That's what makes the Doctor and Jack different. Jack's human and he holds human core attributes. He had to sacrifice Steven, no matter how heartbreaking. HE had to feel the pain and HE had to be responsible and accountable. Jack is Jack and this act of sacrifice is just one of many he must have undertaken. Whether that be sacrificing lover, friends, or family.

And i'm with laurie, majority of people enjoyed it and were thoroughly impressed. (viewing figures?!)
My opinion? it was brilliants scripted, acted and finished. Admitedly some things didnt bode well with me (Ianto's death, the way Clem died and was forgotton) but unreservedly it was brilliant as a whole. :yes:

[cwebster]

Admitedly some things didnt bode well with me (Ianto's death, the way Clem died and was forgotton)

I wonder if originally, Clem was meant to die to stop the 456...or channeling through both Clem and Steven so Steven wouldn't die...

[Hyenathepirate]

I wondered that myself Cindy.

When Clem died, I felt that it sort of left his character as a moot point, other than the realization at the end that his death held the key to the defeat of the 456.

Given what you said earlier, and the limited time frame to act, I suppose I see your point about Jack not having any time to do anything else, but I can't shake the feeling that there had to have been some other way. Maybe it's all these years of following the good Doctor, but as the doctor once said of humanity and all our "potential".

[Meef]

Jack and the others were able to use the frequency the 456 used on Clem that killed him and channel it back to the Aliens using the link with the children. It would seem that the 456 already had control of them. The center Child Steven was used to control the others. He was the center and took the more of the signal. Clem would never have known about his link from childhood with the 456 therefore he never would have been able to destroy him. Unfortunately it took his death to come up with the means to end the terror. And also Steven's as well.

[cwebster]

I can't shake the feeling that there had to have been some other way.

I'm sure Jack would have found another way if there had been time (such a precious commodity). I'm really curious about RTD's original script as he said that originally Steven lived, and he was told "not to be soft" (just watched the lonely little DVD extra)

[Hyenathepirate]

Yeah I saw that too Cwebster. I have a feeling it wouldnt have been much different though, with Steven miraculously surviving, but Jack still being reviled by his daughter for risking his life. Probably the same result of guilt in Jack, still having lost Ianto.

What would have happened if Jack had stood there with him, holding him? Would whatever power of the time vortex that makes him a fixed point have siphoned off some of the signal power?

And I keep wondering if 456 was truly "destroyed" or simply just driven back to where ever it came from to lick it's wounds?

and then you have to wonder about 123 and 789...

[cwebster]

And I keep wondering if 456 was truly "destroyed" or simply just driven back to where ever it came from to lick it's wounds?

I hope destroyed...

[iheartgwack]

well it's a time-tested theory that you can't keep everyone happy all of the time.
personally, i thought it was one of the best written pieces of television i have seen in a very long time. sure there might be holes in the story, but if the writers took the time to iron out every kink and fill every hole the episodes would be weeks long! i think that the story was magnificently told and yes, it's tragic that the tw world lost ianto, but we got to see a brilliant piece of television.
can't wait to see what happens next!!!

[Mr.MojoRisin]

I thought it was great. True, I hated to see Ianto die, I thought that was just shock value there. I'm getting sick of them killing off all the TW members. I get it RTD, you're willing to kill them, ok, stop now. Jack killing his own grandson was a bit much too, that's some harsh shit. But it was nessicary. I'd love to see a special or mini-series about Jack in space post-COE.

[iheartgwack]

I'd love to see a special or mini-series about Jack in space post-COE.

ohhh yeah that'd be brilliant :]
perhaps rather than a thirteen episode series, they could do two or three mini series.
first one being what jack did in his absence.
then we'd have the fantastic concentrated story telling, plus all us torchwood-junkies would have our fix of enough tw episodes!


I get it RTD, you're willing to kill them, ok, stop now. Jack killing his own grandson was a bit much too, that's some harsh shit. But it was nessicary.

i don't think RTD can just stop killing them, we need the suspense and the uncertainty. if there's no danger there's no concern. like in a bond movie ... you know bond's going to make it out alive. and sure bond movies are fantastic, but the last bond movie(s) where there is an actual chance bond will die? they'll be the best ever. (although the length of time they've been making bond films, he's most likely going to die of old age!! :p)

[hello]

I thought it wasn’t as good too. Series 1 and 2 were way better. I actually think it's because Owen wasn’t there. That’s properly not true but for me I think it is.

[ElectroxGirl]

i don't think RTD can just stop killing them, we need the suspense and the uncertainty. if there's no danger there's no concern.
Buffy did all right having the same characters in the first episode as were in the last episode.

[nightowl]

Buffy did all right having the same characters in the first episode as were in the last episode.

Ah, but is the Hellmouth as bad as the Rift plus all of the political organizations that come in contact with Torchwood? :wink:

[ElectroxGirl]

Buffy did all right having the same characters in the first episode as were in the last episode.

Ah, but is the Hellmouth as bad as the Rift plus all of the political organizations that come in contact with Torchwood? :wink:
Pretty much as mad as each other. Hellmouth might even be worse.

[iheartgwack]

i get yr point about buffy but i think torchwood is meant to be slightly more dangerous if you know what i mean. CoE shows that the people behind torchwood aren't just able to put "the world" as an abstract concept that isn't quite quantifiable, in danger ... but to actually put the reality of possible danger into the homes of every one of us. they endangered our children. that's more specific than "the world is going to end". it kind of brought the danger home to us.
if CoE had really happened there was a one in ten chance that your child could have been taken. and that scared people. that worried people ... as shown in the discussions over the morality of the whole thing.
i don't know ... i think the danger is needed in torchwood. makes it all a bit more uncertain and more compelling ... it does for me anyway :]

[Meef]

Comparing Buffy to Torchwood is like Apples to Oranges. I don't see the similarities at all. And wasn't just about everyone dead at the end of Buffy?

[Cayendi]

I've never seen the use in comparing series or the maybe/maybe not similarities.
I just enjoy watching :D

and for the record, I LOVED Buffy and Angel (the series, not the relationship - I'm a slasher, remember?)

[Hyenathepirate]

Personally, I tend to lump TW in with series like the X-files and Millenium...
except.. only if like Agent Mulder's partners were killed every few episodes or so at random intervals instead of having one static partner.

Personally I always felt that Jack and Gwen had a very Mulder/Scully sort of relationship, with Gwen being the down to earth, by the book take charge police gal and Jack the Do whatever it takes to get the job done while remaining full of secrets and maintaining belief in the incredible guy... with not so healthy amount of knowledge of the occult..

But thats just me.

Still, while I can understand why they took TW in this direction and I can even admit elements of COE were "interesting", I still cannot say I walked away from this experience a greater TW fan with a deeper love of the show. For me, this could be the final season and it wouldn't bother me one bit, because everything I found charming about it has moved on.

It's like with SKINS. I loved Skins series 1, but then you flip it up with a bunch of brand new people I don't care about and am not invested in series 3. I suppose it appeases people who dont want cliffhangers, but still I feel there are better ways to wrap up a show than decimating it's cast at the end of each season. A good example is 24.

[Chelle]

Personally, I tend to lump TW in with series like the X-files and Millenium...
except.. only if like Agent Mulder's partners were killed every few episodes or so at random intervals instead of having one static partner.

Personally I always felt that Jack and Gwen had a very Mulder/Scully sort of relationship, with Gwen being the down to earth, by the book take charge police gal and Jack the Do whatever it takes to get the job done while remaining full of secrets and maintaining belief in the incredible guy... with not so healthy amount of knowledge of the occult..

But thats just me.

Still, while I can understand why they took TW in this direction and I can even admit elements of COE were "interesting", I still cannot say I walked away from this experience a greater TW fan with a deeper love of the show. For me, this could be the final season and it wouldn't bother me one bit, because everything I found charming about it has moved on.

It's like with SKINS. I loved Skins series 1, but then you flip it up with a bunch of brand new people I don't care about and am not invested in series 3. I suppose it appeases people who dont want cliffhangers, but still I feel there are better ways to wrap up a show than decimating it's cast at the end of each season. A good example is 24.

I agree with you about Skins. Series 1 was absolutely brilliant and a really good one, but after that once they changed the characters I didnt watch it anymore. Not because it was rubbish, because I liked the old characters. There was so much more they could have done.

xxx

[orchidrose]

A newbie here I'm afraid, but I thought I would put my two pence in!

I understand peoples reaction against COE because it has killed the possibility of us getting the Torchwood of Seasons 1 and 2 that we loved back. There is no Hub, no Ianto and most importantly no Jack! RTD has effectively taken away the cores of the program.

However as a piece of television designed to provoke a genuine reaction and ask the tough questions about the nature of humans under immense pressure it succeeded beyond all expectations.

Jack reacted in the only way a hardened, universe wise, pragmatic man could, the death of Stephen was tragic, but ultimately the only option. By the principles of Utilitarian Ethics (where the needs and happiness of the many outweigh the needs and happiness of the few), Jack's choice was the only morally viable option. And, as with all good pieces of writing, Jack does not escape the consequences of being the one brave enough to make the tough decision, and the episode ends with the emotional trauma which he now has to deal with.

Ros x

[dummy1131]

There is no Hub, no Ianto and most importantly no Jack!

I don't see why the hub couldn't be rebuilt, apart from it costing a hell of a lot of money.
Oh, and like some people have pointed out in other threads, it's still unknown exactly how much of the hub was destroyed.
Some or most of the place might have survived the blast pretty much intact, but is just buried under rubble.

[Hyenathepirate]

I dont know about it though. Sure, Jack could return, rebuild a new HUB, salvage the old, build a new team and all that..

but really, are most of the Torchwood fans willing to "start over" along with the team?

I really do understand how some people hate to have cliffhangers, which is why it's fine to end a series as if it's forever to avoid doing things like Primeval, where the series finale was a big fat cliffhanger that seriously disappointed a great deal of people and makes it terrible if the series doesnt get one more season.

But to use that same show as an example... When Cutter died, the show pretty much ended for me. I'm just not that interested in some other guy leading most of the "remaining" team. And I just dont see Torchwood redeeming Jack enough to make rebuilding worthwhile. I mean, what would be the point? Torchwood was an organization that existed outside of the law, outside of the government, to protect Earth. Of course, it had considerable resources available to aid them in that task.

Now "Torchwood" is less of an organization, and more of an after-school club for alien combat survivors. UNIT is far better equipped than Torchwood would EVER be to fill the role that Torchwood was supposed to be.

I've said it before, but it still stands as a great example: imagine in a series finale of Doctor Who, the Tardis was destroyed, trapping the Doctor on Earth or forcing him to travel time sporadically using various technologies? It would single-handedly ruin the series faster than casting Roger Moore to play the 12th Doctor.

The HUB, like the Tardis was not just a set piece, it was it's own "Character" and an important silent one that tied the series together, and made it feel like a TEAM of unique people tied together in a common effort to save humanity from threats it cant begin to understand.
Torchwood used to be the first and last line of defense against supernatural threat...
Now it's barely the line of defense against a dedicated group of street thugs.

[gisyl]

I dont know about it though. Sure, Jack could return, rebuild a new HUB, salvage the old, build a new team and all that..

but really, are most of the Torchwood fans willing to "start over" along with the team?

I really do understand how some people hate to have cliffhangers, which is why it's fine to end a series as if it's forever to avoid doing things like Primeval, where the series finale was a big fat cliffhanger that seriously disappointed a great deal of people and makes it terrible if the series doesnt get one more season.

But to use that same show as an example... When Cutter died, the show pretty much ended for me. I'm just not that interested in some other guy leading most of the "remaining" team. And I just dont see Torchwood redeeming Jack enough to make rebuilding worthwhile. I mean, what would be the point? Torchwood was an organization that existed outside of the law, outside of the government, to protect Earth. Of course, it had considerable resources available to aid them in that task.

Now "Torchwood" is less of an organization, and more of an after-school club for alien combat survivors. UNIT is far better equipped than Torchwood would EVER be to fill the role that Torchwood was supposed to be.

I've said it before, but it still stands as a great example: imagine in a series finale of Doctor Who, the Tardis was destroyed, trapping the Doctor on Earth or forcing him to travel time sporadically using various technologies? It would single-handedly ruin the series faster than casting Roger Moore to play the 12th Doctor.

The HUB, like the Tardis was not just a set piece, it was it's own "Character" and an important silent one that tied the series together, and made it feel like a TEAM of unique people tied together in a common effort to save humanity from threats it cant begin to understand.
Torchwood used to be the first and last line of defense against supernatural threat...
Now it's barely the line of defense against a dedicated group of street thugs.

I disagree,Torchwood and especially Torchwood 3 has always had a special position.
More then Unit has been.
If Unit was that good,they would have defeated the 456 but they didn`t.
The only person who could and would,eventhough it meant sacrife his own grandson was Jack,who happend to be the leader of Torchwood 3
Yes,the hub is a character but like every doctor gets his own Tardis,so every Torchwood team can have their own hub.
Even the hub in season 1 wasn`t the same as in season 2,in the sense that they had changed some rooms etc.
So,to say that they can`t rebuild a hub makes no sense to me.

I for one would want to see a new season of Torchwood,because I wanna see what happends nex.
I wanna see how they rise up from the rubble and how they are coming back stronger then ever,cause like Gwen said,you can do all things to them,they always are gonna back stronger.

[kolo]

I've said it before, but it still stands as a great example: imagine in a series finale of Doctor Who, the Tardis was destroyed, trapping the Doctor on Earth or forcing him to travel time sporadically using various technologies? It would single-handedly ruin the series faster than casting Roger Moore to play the 12th Doctor.



Already been done. Most of Pertwee's era the Doctor was stranded on Earth.

[Hyenathepirate]

Already been done. Most of Pertwee's era the Doctor was stranded on Earth.

LOL right. But still it wasn't quite the same thing, because you knew at some point it had to come back (or hoped).

In Torchwood, I just don't see them undoing the amount of damage done to Torchwood.
In fact, I'm still trying to figure out where are all the OTHER Torchwood chapters hiding out and if any of them were left. We know Captain Jack was specifically targetted and have some vague understanding of what happened to Torchwood 1.

But if I recall from the first season, Jack mentioning there were Torchwood sections all over the world in many different countries, like Martha Jones was in.

What became of ALL of those Torchwood groups? If it was mentioned in the series ever, I forget, perhaps someone could refresh?

[kolo]

Already been done. Most of Pertwee's era the Doctor was stranded on Earth.

LOL right. But still it wasn't quite the same thing, because you knew at some point it had to come back (or hoped).




The audience did not know it was going to be back at all.

[Hyenathepirate]

I'm not sure about that...

Of course that was a simpler time and we didnt have so many rehashes of the same plots, but I'm not sure people thought it was gone for good. Unfortunately, I am not old enough to have been there for the first run of that series, so you might be right.

But these days, I tend to never think anything is "permanently Gone".

Which I guess means that Torchwood HUB could somehow return too, if Mr. Davries wanted it to.

[cwebster]

Don't know if this needs spoilers, but just in case...

[spoiler:325eklxl]Can't see why the Hub can't be rebuilt. My impression is that Gwen was overseeing that in the last 6 months of CoE. How else would she have the wriststrap? I can't see her and Rhys digging in a pile of rubble by themselves. A great deal of the Hub could have survived...blast follows the path of least resistance, so the lower vaults could have had minimal damage. What I'm going to miss is Myfanwy- in my head, she was out hunting at the time:)[/spoiler:325eklxl]
If there's a series 4 and Jack is in it, I'll be watching. He is the main character for me- he's immortal and morally ambiguous and fascinating...so as long as Jack is back, so am I:)

[Hyenathepirate]

I still feel that Jack has changed too much since the show's inception.

I feel like something has been lost over the past two seasons... and I think it's Jack's cavalier attitude.
I think the Jack I most enjoyed was the Doctor Who Last of the Timelords Jack, who ran and jumped onto the tardis and held on through time, who sacrificed himself knowing the radiation would kill any other man, who harbored a lingering affection for rose and who oozed sexuality, willing to find any man, woman, or alien shaggable at the drop of a hat.

He was more happy go lucky, and somewhere during the series he turned into this cold-hearted, all business no play person. He became far too serious and lost a good deal of sensitivity in the process. Given all thats happened, I guess that can be understandable but still, a little of the old Jack coming back might be enough to tempt me to watch any series 4.

[cwebster]

He was more happy go lucky, and somewhere during the series he turned into this cold-hearted, all business no play person. He became far too serious and lost a good deal of sensitivity in the process. Given all thats happened, I guess that can be understandable but still, a little of the old Jack coming back might be enough to tempt me to watch any series 4

Jack is different in Doctor Who, which makes sense (partly as it's family viewing), since he's not the one in charge. In Torchwood he's the one who has to make the decisions and bear the burden of command, so he has to be more serious.

[Hyenathepirate]

I can understand that, but it's still a huge gulf in personality.

After all, we are still dealing with the same character... it's one thing to make him this dashing rogue in one series, then in another make him this stone-cold grim soldier willing to do anything and everything to succeed. Even the Doctor would frown upon the Jack from Torchwood.

I realize the shows are different aimed at different audiences, but it does break continuity a little bit this way. And like I said, Series one Jack was closer to Doctor Who Jack... somewhere between series 2 and series 3 he became this much darker character which I don't feel was entirely necessary as a writing convention. The doctor has his frightening moments too, and definitely a darkside, but he usually then returns to his quirky self at some point, usually due to his companion and his faith in humanity.

Jack acts like he has no faith... in anything...

[gisyl]

To me Jack has always been a bit more of a darker figure,not a happy go lucky guy.
[spoiler:gfjkqpp3]afterall he is a former Time agent and Conman.
He tried to con the Doctor and Rose when he first met them and was essentially the bad guy when it turned out that his con was the basis of the problems which happend.
Then he turned around and became a better man and he got more or less punisht if you can call it that by getting immortal and the doctor runs away because he,as the doctor later says is wrong.
That is a lot to swallow.[/spoiler:gfjkqpp3]

Also JB has said that the Jack on doctor who is more of a companion who can follow and that the Jack in Torchwood is the leader.so

[cwebster]

I dunno if he suddenly became darker. In Countrycide he referred to his past as the go-to guy for torture. In Small Worlds, he gave up Jasmine to the faeries. I think, like any human, he's always had a dark side, but when he's with the Doctor, he can be more carefree.

[piper1921]

i think jack will come back on the next season and so with gwen and her husband and there will start working with jack in torchwood and there child will be born in it and there will bring ianto back for jack some how. i hope ther will because jack is nothing without ianto.

[Sammy Hart]

I also was Seriously Disappointed by this Series of Torchwood. I used to love Torchwood but I was disappointed and shocked really by this Series. I don't know if this makes me seem really stupid but I don't understand why Jack sacraficed his grandson. I know as I've been told by members of my family that it was for "the greater good". But think about it could you actively kill your own grandson or any member of your family. I know I couldn't.

I was devastated when Ianto died and I also really hope that he somehow gets resurrected if there is to be a new series.
If there is I hope that it will rise it's standards to that of the first two series' and redeem that which was the pitiful excuse for a third series.

Sorry about my vent guys I just was upset with the writers on this one. Please feel free to agree or disagree with me. Hopefully agree. :)

[a8maestro]

After losing 2 characters at the end of season 2(way too soon!), and 2 more in COE, its clear to me that someone wanted the Torchwood franchise killed off(no matter what they say). Qwen is not going to go back to Torchwoodesque stuff with a new baby. Whatever comes back named Torchwood will just be Jack. With no people, no hub/artifacts/computer tools, the aliens will have to get watered down. Jack will just get mean doing this alone. The only thing they could do for a new season are episodes of Jacks life before and after Torchwood.

Bringing back anyone would just be a joke, as it has been everytime it was done since Dallas did the shower scene that wiped out a whole season.

COE was very well written and produced. Did not feel like almost 6 hours of watching. Theater movies have seemed longer. I'll get COE when the DVDs come out, but only to complete the finale of the series.

Rick
:dontknow:

[blaid drwg]

Something which worried me when I heard about the five part episode was re-watchability when I saw the first episode I was less worried and I think for me if events of day 4 hadnt happened then it would be more re-watchable for me personaly but now all the episodes feel depressing cause of what will happen. Looking at it as just a drama I dont think I would watch it very much cause once all the impact of the twists are revealed it looses something. But then again the people who make it are worried about the viewing figures not how many times a fan puts on a DVD.

[peanutbutter]

Something which worried me when I heard about the five part episode was re-watchability when I saw the first episode I was less worried and I think for me if events of day 4 hadnt happened then it would be more re-watchable for me personaly but now all the episodes feel depressing cause of what will happen. Looking at it as just a drama I dont think I would watch it very much cause once all the impact of the twists are revealed it looses something. But then again the people who make it are worried about the viewing figures not how many times a fan puts on a DVD.

Good point, when I watched it for the second time I was in fact a bit scared I wouldn't be able to enjoy it as much as the first time, but I found it's quite rewatchable, especially if you rewatch with people who haven't seen it before. The jokes are still funny, the cliffhangers still breathtaking, and there's all those little details that you miss while seeing it for the first time.

[pobble]

I've just watched series 1,2 and 3 back to back and can classify myself as a new fan.
I see Torchwood as a mix of Dr Who/The (original) Avengers and a peculiar late 60's show no one else seems to remember called the Guardians (about a police state UK).
I've enjoyed every show and eagerly await a new series.

Ianto's death was sad but what really disturbed me was the nature of his death. Why did Jack and Ianto think that they could defeat the 456 without a plan? They simply strode in and barked out conditions and then used handguns of all things. Was Jack insane? He was aware of the power of these beings yet he figured he could just wing it as if they were weevils. It was sloppy work for a time agent.

I'm sure Jack will get over Ianto's death. He makes friends easily! My wish would be for that cruel woman in leather who was hunting him down to become part of the new team.

[Iantofan4557]

The thing that disappointed me about this series was Ianto's death, and turning Jack into a monster when he killed his grandson. I was upset by Ianto's death, and shocked by Jack's decision over his grandson. Much as though I would love Torchwood to come back, after Children of Earth I don't think it would be the same. Not in the slightest.

[blaid drwg]

Something which worried me when I heard about the five part episode was re-watchability when I saw the first episode I was less worried and I think for me if events of day 4 hadnt happened then it would be more re-watchable for me personaly but now all the episodes feel depressing cause of what will happen. Looking at it as just a drama I dont think I would watch it very much cause once all the impact of the twists are revealed it looses something. But then again the people who make it are worried about the viewing figures not how many times a fan puts on a DVD.

Good point, when I watched it for the second time I was in fact a bit scared I wouldn't be able to enjoy it as much as the first time, but I found it's quite rewatchable, especially if you rewatch with people who haven't seen it before. The jokes are still funny, the cliffhangers still breathtaking, and there's all those little details that you miss while seeing it for the first time.
Tired to watch day four yesterday..didnt get far it was just to emotional.

[Chelle]

[quote="blaid drwg":2uz7t5pa]Something which worried me when I heard about the five part episode was re-watchability when I saw the first episode I was less worried and I think for me if events of day 4 hadnt happened then it would be more re-watchable for me personaly but now all the episodes feel depressing cause of what will happen. Looking at it as just a drama I dont think I would watch it very much cause once all the impact of the twists are revealed it looses something. But then again the people who make it are worried about the viewing figures not how many times a fan puts on a DVD.

Good point, when I watched it for the second time I was in fact a bit scared I wouldn't be able to enjoy it as much as the first time, but I found it's quite rewatchable, especially if you rewatch with people who haven't seen it before. The jokes are still funny, the cliffhangers still breathtaking, and there's all those little details that you miss while seeing it for the first time.
Tired to watch day four yesterday..didnt get far it was just to emotional.[/quote:2uz7t5pa]

I agree, for me when day 1 was aired, I thought it was fantastic Torchwood was back on, but when it got to day 4 it was all going downhill. Its so much harder to watch the DVD because of the inevitable sadness that day 5 will always bring with it. Admittedly, I've watched the DVD once but probably won't for a while yet. When it ends, I always think of what could have been and thats the saddest part.

xxx

[cwebster]

Well, I've watched CoE 3 times now, and will definitely watch it again. I certainly hope the BBC goes for a season 4, as long as Jack's back:)

[nightowl]

Pobble, the way I see it was that they had no time, and thought that they could bluff their way through making the aliens walk. They (wrongly) thought that the threat of going public to the world and having the world fight to keep their children safe would make the aliens back down, especially since they had already been in cahoots with the government in terms of keeping secrets.

Unfortunately it was a bluff and gamble that didn't pay off.

How could Jack be a monster? He saved the children of the world, and was willing to do the one thing that not one politician was willing to do. Even though it ripped the heart out of him to do it. The man had no choice. I found him unbelievably tragic because of those two events, which is what the writers intended.

[peanutbutter]

Tired to watch day four yesterday..didnt get far it was just to emotional.

Hope you believe me when I say it gets better?


And off-topic: I absolutely love your icon.

[Meef]

It makes me wonder if the first virus the 456 gave the cure for in exchange for the first 12 children wasn't their invention as well. They seemed to be alot more advanced then us and it seems that they have a handle curing/creating viruses. Why not just take the children? How can such intriguing plot that has so many unanswered questions be a Serious disappointment to any viewer of Science Fiction?

[ElectroxGirl]

Plot holes.

[Meef]

So lack of information in an Alien race is considered a plot hole? So that make War of the Worlds full of Plot holes because nothing is revealed about the Aliens until the end? And even there it is not elaborated upon.

[ElectroxGirl]

I wasn't referring to the lack of information about the aliens. I was just annoyed about the amount of plot holes throughout the series.

[Meef]

There were plot holes? Didn't see any really worth mention not when compared to the first two seasons. But most shows have some plot holes. So I guess it was normal. What was you favorite plot holes in COE? :smile:

[peanutbutter]

It makes me wonder if the first virus the 456 gave the cure for in exchange for the first 12 children wasn't their invention as well.

That makes a lot of sense, because it would be rather a weird coincedence if the 456 showed up exactly when Earth faced a new virus.

[peanutbutter]

There were plot holes? Didn't see any really worth mention not when compared to the first two seasons. But most shows have some plot holes. So I guess it was normal. What was you favorite plot holes in COE? :smile:

I can't see a lot of plot holes in CoE either. But I've seen people making lists of unanswered questions, unexpecte plot twists and even 'out of character behaviour' and calling them plot holes.

A plot hole, IMO, is when a black car is suddenly white, or when there's no possible explanation whatever for an unanswered question.

Things like "Where was Sarah Jane" or "Jack should have said he loved Ianto" are not plotholes.

A 'real' plothole in CoE was that, according to the newspaper Ianto picks up on Day 2, it's wednesday. That would put Day 5 on a Saturday, and that's impossible because children would not go to school .

[Meef]

Good observation peanutbutter. I think if you want plot holes go watch Adam. There are so many things wrong with it that it is a mess. But those that say COE had plot holes would defend Adam to the teeth because of the Janto moment.

This is the definition of a plot hole from Wikipedia ,in part, you want more go and read it.

"A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome. Plot holes are usually seen as weaknesses or flaws in a story, and writers usually try to avoid them to make their stories seem as realistic as possible."

If out of character behavior was one of the plot holes then I would like proof of that from the naysayers. If it was Jack's decision to use Steven to save the world then think of what he did with Jasmine in Small Worlds. I wonder if Ianto had lived would Jack's actions have been considered so wrong?

[cwebster]

Why not just take the children? How can such intriguing plot that has so many unanswered questions be a Serious disappointment to any viewer of Science Fiction?

Since they wanted them gathered together in specific locations, I assumed that there were only certain areas (perhaps uninhabited or sparsely populated) that they could access to 'beam them up".

[peanutbutter]

Why not just take the children? How can such intriguing plot that has so many unanswered questions be a Serious disappointment to any viewer of Science Fiction?

Since they wanted them gathered together in specific locations, I assumed that there were only certain areas (perhaps uninhabited or sparsely populated) that they could access to 'beam them up".

That would contradict beaming the one alien back up from Thames House.

Not that my own explanation is any better :smile: , but to me it seemed they could only use their transport thingy to beam things up or down that were right underneath them.

[cwebster]

That would contradict beaming the one alien back up from Thames House.

How is it contradictory? The government had to built a special chamber for them...it doesn't necessarily mean they could have beamed up everyone in Thames House.

Since neither of us know what was in the minds of the writers, I'm sticking to my theory that they can only access certain coordinates on the planet (maybe Thames House is one of them). it would explain why they couldn't just help themselves to the children.

[Meef]

May be it could only support small amounts of life and not a whole lot? Or it was designed for just them and their units. Maybe not fresh children. For every Answer there is a question, but that doesn't mean that it is a plot hole.

[nightowl]

The transportation method for the alien seems to be markedly different from what they used to take the children in 1965. So presumably, it wouldn't be the same sort of transportation method.

Didn't catch the date on the paper. Oops on continuity there! But a plot hole? Not really.

[Meef]

The paper could be a props department mistake.

[SerenityChaos]

Maybe CoE could've used more... cowbell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQ ... annel_page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQTUM&feature=channel_page)

[Meef]

Hey the whole planet needs more Cowbell!

[SerenityChaos]

*has an image of Jack dancing with the cowbell* Thanks Meef! lol

[darketernal09]

Maybe CoE could've used more... cowbell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQ ... annel_page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQTUM&feature=channel_page)

or it could have used Christopher Walken. Either one works for me ^.^

[gisyl]

I want a cowbell! sounds like fun.

I haven`t seen any major plotholes or OOC behaviour of characters.
Even the flashback with Jack felt consistent to me.

Offcourse,if people already feel dissapointed or didn`t get to see what they want to see then it could be easier to find plotholes.
Even if it was just to prove their points.

[Meef]

I want a cowbell! sounds like fun.

I haven`t seen any major plotholes or OOC behaviour of characters.
Even the flashback with Jack felt consistent to me.

Offcourse,if people already feel dissapointed or didn`t get to see what they want to see then it could be easier to find plotholes.
Even if it was just to prove their points.

Couldn't agree with you more there Jolein! Well said!

[Angelsmile]

I want a cowbell! sounds like fun.

I haven`t seen any major plotholes or OOC behaviour of characters.
Even the flashback with Jack felt consistent to me.

Offcourse,if people already feel dissapointed or didn`t get to see what they want to see then it could be easier to find plotholes.
Even if it was just to prove their points.

Couldn't agree with you more there Jolein! Well said!

I am the type of viewer that on the first viewing is so busy waiting to see what is going to happen that it takes repeated viewing for me to catch any plotholes or discrepancies. While I like COE I was unable to watch it again in it's entirety until 2 weeks later. My cousin is a big tv viewer, but she had not heard of Torchwood (she doesn't have cable) so I took the opportunity to show her while watching for the second time. I was able to enjoy it without worrying about what was going to happen because I was trying to catch her reactions. She totally loved it, but even as a first time viewer she found plotholes. As I said I never noticed any in my first viewing and only noticed them after because of the comments of her and others. Her most notable reaction was when Ianto and Jack began shooting at the tank. She goes "WTF?". It made me laugh. She also wondered why did Jack want to see the 456, in her words "Was that the plan?". She wondered why the funeral director was left so close to the edge of the road and why he didn't just take the gag off his mouth.

I said all this to say just because we do not notice plotholes does not mean that others cannot or that plotholes are not there. I go into a movie or show fully expecting to have to suspend belief so there is no expectation that everything will make perfect sense. I am watching for the story first and will only pick up details with repeated viewings. Unless the plotholes or discrepancies are glaringly obvious I won't notice. My cousin notices all the details. It doesn't mean she or others are trying to find fault because they didn't see what they wanted to see. As I said she loved and would watch it again plotholes and all.

[Meef]

The funeral director was tied up and couldn't take the gag off. If you didn't see the ropes that is props not a plot hole. Jack is a known Alien Negotiator and went into talk the 456 into leaving earth. It part of what Torchwood does. By firing on the tank they were hoping to kill the 456 in order to prove a point to the rest that them shouldn't mess with earth. Those aren't plot holes either, Jack had a motive and a purpose.

[gisyl]

The funeral director was tied up and couldn't take the gag off. If you didn't see the ropes that is props not a plot hole. Jack is a known Alien Negotiator and went into talk the 456 into leaving earth. It part of what Torchwood does. By firing on the tank they were hoping to kill the 456 in order to prove a point to the rest that them shouldn't mess with earth. Those aren't plot holes either, Jack had a motive and a purpose.i
Yep,that was what I was thinking aswell about those scenes.
What most people called plotholes were actually part of the story or were there because of the time.
I mean,they had only an hour each day,it`s fairly obvious that they won`t explain everything in every scene.

[Angelsmile]

The funeral director was tied up and couldn't take the gag off. If you didn't see the ropes that is props not a plot hole. Jack is a known Alien Negotiator and went into talk the 456 into leaving earth. It part of what Torchwood does. By firing on the tank they were hoping to kill the 456 in order to prove a point to the rest that them shouldn't mess with earth. Those aren't plot holes either, Jack had a motive and a purpose.i
Yep,that was what I was thinking aswell about those scenes.
What most people called plotholes were actually part of the story or were there because of the time.
I mean,they had only an hour each day,it`s fairly obvious that they won`t explain everything in every scene.


The funeral director was tied up, however his hands were tied in front of him and they were near his face. As far as Jack being a "known Alien Negotiator", while that may be true he was never referred to in that way and I personally don't remember any instances of his being brought in to negotiate. I could be wrong, however none of that was the point of my post. When Ianto and Jack were shooting at the tank I personally thought the point was if they were going to die they were going to take the 456 with them. To me that is not a plothole. The point was just because you or I don't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there or that someone else didn't see it. Just because someone doesn't see COE as the most brilliant piece of television ever does not mean that when they speak of plotholes they have ulterior motives. Nor does it mean that they are just complaining because they didn't see what they wanted to see.

[Angelsmile]

Since this thread is about disappointment I want to comment on what has disappointed me the most since COE. As much as I didn't like Ianto dying and as much as I felt this was not the balanced Torchwood that I had come to love, my biggest disappointment has been the reaction of some fans to others. If you are not on the "This was the most brilliant piece of television ever, RTD is a genius, I can't wait for season 4" bandwagon there is the feeling that you must explain yourself. You must prove that it is not because you are some type of pervert that is upset to have missed out on some man on man sex. You must prove that it is not because you were never a true Torchwood fan to begin with. You must prove that your love of the characters over the story is a valid viewpoint. You have to explain that the fact that you were not impressed by the darkness does not make you frivolous and less intelligent. In essence you have to justify your right to have a different opinion. If you appreciated the "greatness" of COE you have to make no such arguments. You are right. If you don't bow to it's "greatness" you must explain why, all the while listening to others telling you why they think you "really" didn't like it (and none of the reasons are flattering).

While many may not agree this is the feeling I have had since I began posting regarding COE. I really liked COE, it wasn't love because it became too dark for me. I wish they had not killed off Ianto. I think the reasons behind it don't hold up. Even so it was some of the best acting in the series. Without the characters I love I am not excited about a season 4. This is how I feel and while I don't mind discussing it I really dislike the feeling that I have to almost apologize for it.

This is not meant to speak to anyone in particular so take it as you will. Agree, disagree, or disregard. I just needed to vent so I could move on.

[Meef]

The funeral director was tied up and couldn't take the gag off. If you didn't see the ropes that is props not a plot hole. Jack is a known Alien Negotiator and went into talk the 456 into leaving earth. It part of what Torchwood does. By firing on the tank they were hoping to kill the 456 in order to prove a point to the rest that them shouldn't mess with earth. Those aren't plot holes either, Jack had a motive and a purpose.i
Yep,that was what I was thinking aswell about those scenes.
What most people called plotholes were actually part of the story or were there because of the time.
I mean,they had only an hour each day,it`s fairly obvious that they won`t explain everything in every scene.


The funeral director was tied up, however his hands were tied in front of him and they were near his face. As far as Jack being a "known Alien Negotiator", while that may be true he was never referred to in that way and I personally don't remember any instances of his being brought in to negotiate. I could be wrong, however none of that was the point of my post. When Ianto and Jack were shooting at the tank I personally thought the point was if they were going to die they were going to take the 456 with them. To me that is not a plothole. The point was just because you or I don't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there or that someone else didn't see it. Just because someone doesn't see COE as the most brilliant piece of television ever does not mean that when they speak of plotholes they have ulterior motives. Nor does it mean that they are just complaining because they didn't see what they wanted to see.


Angel smile we were stating an opinion how we saw it. It wasn't meant to be an insult towards you that is why these are discussion topics so we show our viewpoints which is not always a like. Everyone sees things slightly different from everyone else. We don't always see eye to eye, that is humanity's beauty. Your post was somewhat misleading then. You made it seen like those were plot holes.

Part of what Torchwood does which certain branches of government know is to nullify Alien threads and Jack was there and the only one alive from the first encounter with the 456, so it is known through that and other things that has happened to be part of what Torchwood does. Talk with Aliens. It would need six days if everything was explained. Yes if they died shooting at the tank and so did the 456 then that is also what Torchwood does.

Nothing was ever said about alternative motives. I was just adding to what you said and commenting. Sorry if it upset you. You opened the comment up to discussion. Please my comment was not meant to harm. :smile:

[nightowl]

If you look in the episodes threads for COE, you'll see some varied reactions, and people discussing what happens in a fascinating way, without making judgements on one another. I think that part of the problem was that this show brought out a lot of emotions in people, and when people react emotionally, they do it with their heart and not their head.

SF fans are very passionate about their fandom, as this place has shown. I don't see it as a disrespect on either side, really. There are some fans who have taken things a bit too far, which is where I think the other side reacted to - that might be what you were seeing.

As for Jack the alien negotiator, I think it is a given that TW is known within political and military circles as the go to people when it comes to aliens. Of course, UNIT may argue that, and tend to go by the book more often than TW does. But I do think that had the govt been not out to cover things up, TW would have been involved from the beginning in this whole thing with the children. They were just never given the chance.

[ElectroxGirl]

(someone please tell me why I post so late/early. Apologies if this makes absolutely no sense)

I've seen on a few other websites that some fans have have been saying the only reason there are people that didn't like COE was because of Ianto's death. They just call them "hysterical fangirls" and only believe their opinion is correct. What they don't seem to understand is that there are things about the entire series they didn't like. (for example I didn't like that they completely ignored what the previous two series were about - dealing with what comes through the Rift - and being set in Cardiff.)
I'm not talking about on this forum as everyone respects each others opinions which is fantastic! Other websites seem to have split (even website against website like the saveiantojones site vs the digital spy forums) I just hope we can get a fourth series that will satisfy near enough all the fans (well the fans that will continue to watch that is)

I also think it's brilliant that we're all still talking about COE now, the BBC should be proud of that!

(I admit I forgot where I was going with this. My brain fails me when I need it.)

[Meef]

It reminds me of the whole Janto and Gwack debate that became a blood bath every where, and at some points here. But we came to terms with it and were able to over come our disagreements and realise that we all love Torchwood for some reason or another. We are unique in our respect of the fellow members of this forum. Other places are out of control. The thing is that if you mourn a character's death in a TV show that is okay. But if your opinions are towards violence then you are an Hysterical fangirl. RTD is no hack and those who got upset with Ianto's death seemed determined to persuade or destroy all others who didn't agree with them. That is wrong. Most of us will move on. In a way there are some that are "hysterical fan girls". They will settle at nothing less then the total destruction of this fandom unless they get there way. Much like some Janto fan's were like when they were confronted by Gwack. It is really very stupid and rather immature to behave like you own something the rest of us love as well. Since we have to share this fandom with others, we should never step on are brothers and sisters like this. It is wrong. Be thankful you are in a place that is kind to all and caring. We have worked hard to get here. All of us have. If Some decide to give up on the show then they are not true fans but just fans of on aspect of the show. And that is mainly Janto. I just don't feel that way. I love the show for what it has given me. And to be honest. It was finding this forum. Talking to some cool people and making friends with people I never would have met had Torchwood not existed in the first place. It is more then opinion in topic, or Janto and Gwack or Hates of COE verses Lovers of COE. It is about being a community and sharing who we are with others. That is what Torchwood has bought to me. And I will support the show for as long as it is around.

[ElectroxGirl]

Yep same here. I'll continue to watch this show as I have loved the majority of it. Luckly there aren't that many fans making threats towards the writers and I'm sure, by now, they've calmed themselves down.
I love reading other peoples opinions on the show because, in some ways, it can make you understand a bit more about why things happen as other fans may spot things you've missed. That's why I love this place because people give their opinions without insulting those of others.

[nightowl]

Not everything in the first two seasons came out of the rift - the faeries for one example.

I don't think it necessarily ignored the rift, it was that there was an external force (alien and not from the rift) that took over events. There was no time to monitor the rift when they were running for their lives.

Not a plot hole, just a different direction for the story. Some people don't like it, and that's fine.

If we all liked the same thing in the same way, it would be a very boring place to visit. :wink:

[Angelsmile]

If Some decide to give up on the show then they are not true fans but just fans of on aspect of the show. And that is mainly Janto. I just don't feel that why.

Meef, while I agree with a lot of your post I disagree with this statement. A show is made up of characters and stories. In my opinion a person is not less of a fan if they relate to the characters more than the stories. Why is that wrong and that viewer less of a fan? In all shows from week to week the strength of the stories may change, but fans that love the characters will stay throughout to see those characters. Once that attachment is made and then broken through story a fan that gives up on the show may no longer be a fan, but it does not mean they were never a true fan to begin with. I would also suggest that while there may be many Janto fans, even among them one character was loved more than the other. For me that was Ianto. I liked Captain Jack, I really liked Janto, but I loved Ianto. For me the attachment was broken with his death. For those that loved CJH more the show will go on. The same is true for those that were more drawn to the stories than the characters. I doubt they would be considered not true fans if they found the stories lacking and didn't stay for the characters.

It's late so hopefully this made some sense.

[gisyl]

Meef,I completly agree with you.
There are some places on LJ I won`t go anymore just because I liked the series for what it is,a great piece of drama.
It was Torchwood,in all it`s dark places but with a twist.

[Meef]

It means true fans of a show as a whole. I loved Ianto's as well and did get upset over his death but never once thought about never watching Torchwood again. He is a character in a story with a bigger picture. That is the point. If you stand by a show for it's ups and downs that is a true fan. But if you see failing when what you supported in the show changes or dies then you supported just one aspect of the show. The statement meant and I'm sorry if I didn't clarify it, was that so many decide to not watch the show when one piece of the show stopped or if a character didn't act like they should have in their eyes. That is not a hardcore fan, which would go the mile with a show despite it's ups and downs. Some say they won't watch Torchwood for season 4 with out Ianto, or Janto that means they were more of a Janto/Ianto fan then they were of the concept of Torchwood. Much the same way most people didn't watch STNG when it came out because it was not the original Star Trek. If you are true fan of a drama you watch the drama even when the character changes. I'm not talking about relating to parts of the story. I'm talking about support of the show. A good example is if you are dating someone and you like a lot of things about them but you really like their hair. Then they cut it and you decide that you didn't really like them after that. All the other elements are still there that attacked you to begin with but you can't date them because you hate their hair. It is called being shallow. If they loved the person the hair wouldn't make a difference. Same with fans.


" but fans that love the characters will stay throughout to see those characters. Once that attachment is made and then broken through story a fan that gives up on the show may no longer be a fan, but it does not mean they were never a true fan to begin with."

That is your statement. If you are a true fan, then you wouldn't give up on the show when it "cut it's hair" you would love it for the rest of the things you watched it for to begin with. You statement suggest they are fans because of one element of the show. And they leave. A true fan dosen't give up, much like a true love. This is purely my opinion not meant to infulence or criticise any one else's.

[ElectroxGirl]

But some people are feeling like the Torchwood they know and love is gone. It's damaged beyond repair and that's why they're getting out. It is partly to do with the death of Ianto, especially so soon after Tosh and Owen, but that's not the whole reason. If they are so emotionally attatched to the show I think that kind of proves they are huge fans.

[NicJJ]

its exactly like the whole situation with doctor who
loads of people arnt going to watch it anymore cause david tennant isnt in it and they dont like the look of the new doctor matt smith
i suppose we have to see what it is like first before passing judgment on it without our fave character and fave actors in it.
but if they killed gwen off i defo wouldnt be watching it again but i would see what it would be like without her if they did another episode/series after her death, which sorta goes back on what i just said but oh well lol
:) xxx

[gisyl]

ut some people are feeling like the Torchwood they know and love is gone. It's damaged beyond repair and that's why they're getting out. It is partly to do with the death of Ianto, especially so soon after Tosh and Owen, but that's not the whole reason. If they are so emotionally attatched to the show I think that kind of proves they are huge fans.

This is pure my opinion,but that seems to me that they were just watching it for one aspect and not for the whole series.
There is nothing wrong with that(hell,I watch the Csi series only for certain characters) but that doesn`t mean perse that your a fan of the series but it does say your a fan of the character.

[Meef]

We can move this debate over here if you want.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11718&p=343089#p343089 (http://www.torchwoodforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11718&p=343089#p343089)

[Angelsmile]

It means true fans of a show as a whole. I loved Ianto's as well and did get upset over his death but never once thought about never watching Torchwood again. He is a character in a story with a bigger picture. That is the point. If you stand by a show for it's ups and downs that is a true fan. But if you see failing when what you supported in the show changes or dies then you supported just one aspect of the show. The statement meant and I'm sorry if I didn't clarify it, was that so many decide to not watch the show when one piece of the show stopped or if a character didn't act like they should have in their eyes. That is not a hardcore fan, which would go the mile with a show despite it's ups and downs. Some say they won't watch Torchwood for season 4 with out Ianto, or Janto that means they were more of a Janto/Ianto fan then they were of the concept of Torchwood. Much the same way most people didn't watch STNG when it came out because it was not the original Star Trek. If you are true fan of a drama you watch the drama even when the character changes. I'm not talking about relating to parts of the story. I'm talking about support of the show. A good example is if you are dating someone and you like a lot of things about them but you really like their hair. Then they cut it and you decide that you didn't really like them after that. All the other elements are still there that attacked you to begin with but you can't date them because you hate their hair. It is called being shallow. If they loved the person the hair wouldn't make a difference. Same with fans.


" but fans that love the characters will stay throughout to see those characters. Once that attachment is made and then broken through story a fan that gives up on the show may no longer be a fan, but it does not mean they were never a true fan to begin with."

That is your statement. If you are a true fan, then you wouldn't give up on the show when it "cut it's hair" you would love it for the rest of the things you watched it for to begin with. You statement suggest they are fans because of one element of the show. And they leave. A true fan dosen't give up, much like a true love. This is purely my opinion not meant to infulence or criticise any one else's.


I have read your post and gave it some thought and maybe you are correct. I was never a true fan of Torchwood, if true is read to mean hardcore. Or maybe it is more correct to say I was a fan of Torchwood and became a bigger fan of the characters. I say this because while I am not vowing to never watch again, I most probably will, I am not excited about it. I am not filled with anticipation like I was for series 3. If series 3 was the end I would be okay. It would seem that maybe I have never been a true fan of any show. Once a show takes a direction that does not excite me any longer my dedication wanes. Maybe it comes from having satellite television and a myriad of shows to watch. Why dedicate your time to something that no longer satisfies. To use your analogy, you are correct I wouldn't leave someone I loved because they changed their hair. However if their personality began to change in ways that I didn't like, while I might not leave immediately, I would definitely make note of the exits. I am just that kind of person. In any case excited or not, a fan or not, I doubt I will cut it out completely. Though a lot of my decision may be based on how Jack seems in Doctor Who.

[nightowl]

I am not filled with anticipation like I was for series 3. If series 3 was the end I would be okay. It would seem that maybe I have never been a true fan of any show.

Perhaps by the time S4 does roll around, you will feel the same anticipation. It's a long way away, and hard to judge at this moment what we'll be anticipating a year from now.

[ElectroxGirl]

I'm trying to trust RTD with making series 4 brilliant. I guess I won't until I hear some news on it though.

[cwebster]

I'm trying to trust RTD with making series 4 brilliant. I guess I won't until I hear some news on it though.

This is showing up in a few sources today:

http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/ ... plans.html (http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/davies-has-future-torchwood-plans.html)

[ElectroxGirl]

I'm trying to trust RTD with making series 4 brilliant. I guess I won't until I hear some news on it though.

This is showing up in a few sources today:

http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/ ... plans.html (http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/davies-has-future-torchwood-plans.html)
Yeh...that doesn't really give me much hope yet.

[Angelsmile]

I am not filled with anticipation like I was for series 3. If series 3 was the end I would be okay. It would seem that maybe I have never been a true fan of any show.

Perhaps by the time S4 does roll around, you will feel the same anticipation. It's a long way away, and hard to judge at this moment what we'll be anticipating a year from now.

I really hope so.

[SerenityChaos]

I'm trying to trust RTD with making series 4 brilliant. I guess I won't until I hear some news on it though.

This is showing up in a few sources today:

http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/ ... plans.html (http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/davies-has-future-torchwood-plans.html)
Yeh...that doesn't really give me much hope yet.

Why not? RTD say he knows how the show continues and just needs to know if BBC wants 13 eps or CoE format.

[Meef]

I'm trying to trust RTD with making series 4 brilliant. I guess I won't until I hear some news on it though.

This is showing up in a few sources today:

http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/ ... plans.html (http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/davies-has-future-torchwood-plans.html)
Yeh...that doesn't really give me much hope yet.

Why not? RTD say he knows how the show continues and just needs to know if BBC wants 13 eps or CoE format.

There is alway hope and that is a good thing.

[ElectroxGirl]

I'm trying to trust RTD with making series 4 brilliant. I guess I won't until I hear some news on it though.

This is showing up in a few sources today:

http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/ ... plans.html (http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/davies-has-future-torchwood-plans.html)
Yeh...that doesn't really give me much hope yet.

Why not? RTD say he knows how the show continues and just needs to know if BBC wants 13 eps or CoE format.
I'm going to wait and see what he has planned before I get my hopes up.

[Virunee]

I just wanted to say I totally 100% agree with the first post @James Harper.

The only difference is that I like Ianto, even though he was pointless etc.

After watching CoE, I wished I could've told myself not to watch it and have Exit Wounds as my lasting Torchwood memory. For me, that was Torchwood at it's best.

[LadyCaffeine]

I'm trying to trust RTD with making series 4 brilliant. I guess I won't until I hear some news on it though.

This is showing up in a few sources today:

http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/ ... plans.html (http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a172247/davies-has-future-torchwood-plans.html)

"I've got a shape in mind, and I've got stories. I know where you'd find Gwen and Rhys, and their baby, and Jack, and I know how you'd go forward with a new form of Torchwood."

:sad: I really enjoyed the old form of Torchwood. I wonder what this "new form" will be? (Maybe it'll be a comedy-drama about the ordinary life of a married couple experiencing the joys of parenthood? Oh, and that crazy Uncle Jack who suddenly shows up with his new girlfriend and just can't help himself from flirting with the lovely mother and making the grandparents uncomfortable by talking loudly about his old boyfriends.)

I've only been able to watch days 4 and 5 of CoE, so I can't really comment on whether it's good television or not. But I am disappointed with the things that happened and the fact that the Torchwood I fell in love with seems to be gone for good.

[Weis]

I was very disappointed that the only way the creators saw fit to bring drama into series was through destruction of everything. Death of loved ones, of innocents, and child sacrifice are probably the most horrid things average human can imagine. It saddened me that TW writers went for maximum drama impact using such strong and clumsy means. Did they think that anything less would fail to get a response from viewers?

People say what Jack could and couldn’t do about sacrificing Steven, but it’s not Jack created this situation and not aliens – it was writers. They created plot completely different from usual TW line, where TW team resolves any problem in the end and emerges battered but victorious. Instead they created situation where Torchwood fails and degraded Jack from his earned in previous series hero status to strange creature who sacrifices children.

And before somebody point me that there was no time to do something else about Steven and everything – remember, this situation was written that way, it was created. Jack was placed in this situation and behaved as writers saw fit. In short – they made him that way.

We can discuss Jack’ possible motives all we want, the point is we shouldn’t have to make excuses and explanations for personages – that’s writers’ job. And I must say that Captain Jack from first two seasons was not who I saw in third. And no, that wasn’t character development – that must be gradual and self-explainable, it must be obvious from personage' actions. But it wasn’t.

Then there is point of bringing Rhys and Andy into focus. Though that were good and reliable personages, they were bring in only because three main personages were not enough to pull the plot. It was remainder that Torchwood (as the show) always was about team effort; three personages are not enough to pull it. To show necessary dynamics, action and character play writers need more than three main personages (for TW). So, what was the point to kill two established characters (Owen and Toshiko) if in the end they (writers) had to bring into focus additional two characters to support the plot?

And then they killed another one main character, successfully ending the very possibility of any dynamics whatsoever.

So, the momentum of the third season was death, destruction and degradation of main character (Jack). That revert us to my first point – why writer went for the kill, for the maximum impact to get drama? Did they think that anything less would not be enough to impress auditory? They “killed” so many people, killed every main personage, threatened children, and made Jack do something horrid - just to impress us?

I think that’s overkill.
I found it clumsy and disturbing. And incredibly poor writing.

[Catmoon3]

Perhaps by the time S4 does roll around, you will feel the same anticipation. It's a long way away, and hard to judge at this moment what we'll be anticipating a year from now.

I'm glad Weis bumped this topic because now I'm curious. The last post to this thread was Sept. '09, and it's been almost a year now since COE, so what is everyone anticipating? Still excited? Hopeful, hopeless, still love it, still hate it?

[gravitule]

I still [strike:nv9yiih9]hate it[/strike:nv9yiih9] feel disgusted.
Maybe I [strike:nv9yiih9]hate[/strike:nv9yiih9] dislike it more compared to last July now that I know that Jack left Earth just to be one minute in a Starwars bar, that the hub was blown to build a bigger Tardis and that basically the field was cleared to try to sell it to the Fox....

(Post edited in order to adress Meef's concerns. I was basically only answering a love it/hate it question regarding a TV show and don't want to start a debate about "hate crimes" applied to a TV show or about my potential criminal mind when using the word "hate").

[nightowl]

I'm still looking forward to it if it ever happens. It's not the first show to have a hiatus (Dr Who have a very noticable gap before RTD got involved) so I'm happy to wait and see what happens.

Weis - I agree and disagree with what you are saying. It is well known that RTD has said he had the idea of a political drama of this type for years so one could say that he shoehorned TW in to an existing idea.

Having said that, as the creator of the series and the characters, it is his right to do with as he pleases. He also was limited by the BBC on how many episodes he had to tell the story, so by necessity the whole thing was more compact in terms of character development. Add to that the fact that it moved to BBC1 and had to introduce the characters to a new audience who had no prior viewing experience with the series.

If you have a problem with the destruction of things, then you must have had a problem with the end of S2, since the same thing happened, but on a larger scale, when you think of the fact that two main characters died, and the team was decimated by what had happened.

I think in essence there is the story that decisions have consequences and in true karmic fashion, they come back to roost on your doorstep. In Jack's very long life he's done a lot of stuff that he isn't proud of - even after he met the Doctor and was stuck on Earth. Inevitably it is going to come back at you at some point.

And what you call clumsy, I thought was well written. It held the viewership and people were glued to their TVs. There were times when our jaws dropped, and it wasn't because of the shock value of what was happening to the team but what happening in the situation room. It was disturbing because it was so plausible that one's government could do something like that.

I will also argue the point that the TW team is always battered but victorious. Look at Meat, From Out of the Rain, Adrift and Exit Wounds, for example. Each had some telling losses, so they weren't always victorious.

In the end, they didn't do it to impress you. They did it because that's the story they wrote and the one they wanted to tell. And they did it with tremendous results from a ratings point of view, so obviously there is an audience for that sort of thing.

What they were tackling is the story of what the world would do if someone came looking for their children. It was designed to get a guttural response, because it's instinctive for people to want to protect children. But the realities are that some nasty things happen in real life every day and people don't want to do anything because it's not their problem. So that's where the writers were going - take that on a global scale, add in the SF angle and pit the govt and military against the small group of people who could solve it.

And that's the story they told. And in my opinion, not clumsy or poor writing at all. One can argue that it wasn't the TW story that people wanted, but then it's not our series to decide what happens.

[Meef]

I could never hate anything Torchwood. Hate is a strong word that is the bane of humanity. To use the word hate is to show aggression. That is why they have a term "hate crimes" when people are attacked by others for their beliefs.

I agree with Elaine. She knows what she is saying and has a vast amount of literary wisdom. If a show is a drama it is suppose to be dramatic. That is what Torchwood is a science fiction drama. It was never meant to be happy.

I loved Season 3 as I did the other seasons because they lead us down a dark path. That's what made it different from other shows and that is what made it unique in the genre.

[vegakapera]

I'm not quite certain what I think about CoE... There are things that I really loved and things I absolutely loathed.
Let me just remind you that this is my personal opinion and not something I consider to be the Ultimate Truth of the show.

On the positive side:

It was highly political - this shows the darkest side of mankind, the things we do for power or to save our own behinds.
Good tempo - The 5 episode thing actually worked and it didn't feel too rushed or too drawn out story vs time wise.
Ianto's background - Loved the thing we find out about Ianto's dad, also loved the scene at the playground. It just fits the character so well that he sort of re-wrote the story of his life to be able to become the person he had to become and be during the previous seasons.
Loved the relationship between Gwen and Rhys - Kai Owen did some amazing stuff with his scenes and I liked how the relationship between Gwen and Rhys developed during CoE.
Gwen is finally pregnant and that added something amazing to her character
Dark Themes - I like it rough and dark and dirty.
Creepy Children - Really, what's not to like about that.
PC Andy - I love Andy and one of my fav scenes was when he picked sides.
Forbisher's (I'm afraid I can't spell it) end. - That was a really really powerful scene for me. Very emotional.

On the negative side (this will be longer since I'll explain it in greater detail):

The relationship between Jack and Ianto - No, I don't mean it like that. I mean that Ianto had just really begun to come to terms with the relationship and I think that the writers missed a great opportunity to do some very interesting things with this relationship, it had not been given enough time to develop (according to me).

The Big: WTF are they doing? - When going to "talk" to the 456 there is one big thing that does not make sense at all. Why is Ianto there? Let me put it like this: What does the 456 breathe? What is that gas that is in the tank? It's poison. If your plan is to shoot a hole in this tank (a tank that people have to wear a space suit replica to survive in) to make a statement, why do you send in a character that will die from doing so? It's my opinion that unless Ianto was suicidal, it was a very idea bad idea to bring him along (I think that Jack should have forced him to wait outside the room, the 'final' poison would still have gotten to him though). It did feel like (again, for me) as if he was put there simply so that he could die.

No "Harriet Jones" - I would have loved it if she had been there, just because I would have loved for someone inside the government to be the voice of the human side of us humans. You know, a character who would have spoken about what is right and not the easy way out.

Alice - Couldn't they have at least mentioned her before? Also, I would have loved to see what had happened if she and Ianto had met. Again a lot of unused potential that could have become something fantastic. Perhaps she can become a part of the new TW team (as long as she doesn't work with Jack), perhaps in a rebuilt Torchwood 1.

Here's the big issue for me:
Death of Ianto vs. Death of Steven.

The writers really did shoot the story in its own foot by killing Ianto during day 4. I can only speak for myself on this but...
Us viewers have had a LOT of time to "connect" with Ianto, no matter what we think about him we still know his character quite well by now. We had very little time to get to know Steven and we do not have as strong a connection with him simply because he hasn't been around long enough for that. The show did put a lot of focus on Ianto's death, it's probably one of the saddest death scenes ever to have appeared on television. These three things lead to one thing (for me at least).
I did not feel anywhere near as moved by Steven's death as I did Ianto's.

Steven's time on the show was too brief for me to really experience the sense of loss I did with Ianto. I think that Steven's death would have been WAY more moving if it had happened before Ianto's. That would of course require the parts of the script to be re-written. This is one of the ways it could have happened (just something I came up with just now, it's not very developed):
After Clem's death they figure out how to defeat the 456 and because there is no other way, Steven sacrifices himself. All the 456 save the one in the tank die. Jack and Ianto go to eliminate the last threat and the 456 releases the virus (or is it a second poison?) as a final attempt to save its own life (thus keeping Ianto's death and the death of the staff). Jack would still be a broken man at the end of that.

Enough of my random babbling...

[nightowl]

You babble quite coherently and make some good points.

You also touched on some things where I think the compressed episode schedule affected the story. It makes one wonder what ended up on the cutting room floor due to lack of time so to speak, as well as how different it may have been with a 13 episode arc.

I do think that the Kai and Eve scenes were brilliant - he did a marvelous job of making that relationship work as well as dealing with the issues as they came about in the series.

I will hazard that it wouldn't have worked to have Steven sacrifice himself. Part of the issue was that he was an innocent who didn't have a choice in the matter. And that is what finally breaks Jack past the ability to function, and what ultimately makes him run.

[James]

Steven's time on the show was too brief for me to really experience the sense of loss I did with Ianto. I think that Steven's death would have been WAY more moving if it had happened before Ianto's

Steven's time was too brief but it does go along the line that we also do not know alot about Captain Jack. Who knew he gave those kids up earlier? And now he had a daughter who was in hidding some sort, changed her name and stuff. You could see Steven adored Jack. And his death was the only way to save the world. Kill your own grandson... To even get to that point something really dramatic had to have happened to Jack, there for the Ianto story line comes in. Not that I wished Ianto should of died but you never see Jack give up. When they take him to the cell, he just looked like he gives up. There is nothing left. I think John Barrowman had also said that about losing Ianto was something that broke Jack. Could be me that is rambling now.. hehehe..

I love myself and really kick myself with this all the time... didn't want Ianto to die but.. where the story was going, he kinda had to and... *sigh*.. no fair!

[Kaleidoscope]

what is everyone anticipating? Still excited? Hopeful, hopeless, still love it, still hate it?
I actually dislike CoE more now than I did when it aired. Because now I've stepped back and looked at it from a distance and decided it was lousy writing. When I watched it, I enjoyed Days One, Two and Three at varying degrees. I disliked Day Four and Day Five was an awful ending with or without Ianto's death. But since then, I've grown more disliking of it overall. It wasn't the TW I fell in love with. It was something else entirely. And I really think the writer's struggled with a 5 hour storyline both because it was 5 times longer than a standard TW episode (they had to stretch the storyline 5 times longer than a standard TW episode) and because it was shorter than a standard TW series (they didn't have enough time to make us care about new characters.)

That aside, I'm still hopeful for a S4. I'd rather it be in Cardiff but I'll take a US season if that's what we're offered. I hope it returns to a proper series and not a 5 part story. I prefer seperate episodes with an underlying story arc which climaxes at the end.

(Oh and if The Moff could take over and bring Ianto back in some clever fashion, I wouldn't say no :wink: )

[Weis]

as the creator of the series and the characters, it is his right to do with as he pleases.
The same goes for viewers – it is my right to have an opinion about what I see, to agree or disagree with creator’s point of view and means they used.


He also was limited by the BBC on how many episodes he had to tell the story, so by necessity the whole thing was more compact in terms of character development. Add to that the fact that it moved to BBC1 and had to introduce the characters to a new audience who had no prior viewing experience with the series.
I understand that changes were necessary, and my main concern was not compact format or lack of character development. The writer either can write about their own character in new circumstances or they cannot. And yes, it was political drama – my main concern was not its political aspect, but what writers made characters to do in those circumstances.


If you have a problem with the destruction of things, then you must have had a problem with the end of S2, since the same thing happened, but on a larger scale, when you think of the fact that two main characters died, and the team was decimated by what had happened.
I don’t “have a problem” but I strongly disagree that killing first two protagonists and then another one is good for show.


I think in essence there is the story that decisions have consequences and in true karmic fashion, they come back to roost on your doorstep. In Jack's very long life he's done a lot of stuff that he isn't proud of - even after he met the Doctor and was stuck on Earth. Inevitably it is going to come back at you at some point.
So, we must ASSUME that Jack was so bad during his pre-Doctor life that all CoE drama happened to punish him for his previous sins? Why? Do you really think that writers had that message for their audience? So, the other personages around him exist only as background? Must we see his suffering as some kind of atonement for his supposed sins? But atonement not equals drama.
Anyway, I strongly disagree. I don’t see the connection between Jack’s actions in previous seasons or in DW and CoE as supposed retribution for something he may or may not did previously.



I will also argue the point that the TW team is always battered but victorious. Look at Meat, From Out of the Rain, Adrift and Exit Wounds, for example. Each had some telling losses, so they weren't always victorious.
Yes, they were. They suffered, but remained relatively safe and sound, ready for new challenges. That’s part of fantastic entourage necessary for every sci-fi show – the heroes (the team here) must preserve. Exit Wounds was special because it was some kind of closure, the beginning of the end – you said yourself that “RTD had the idea of a political drama of this type for years so one could say that he shoehorned TW in to an existing idea”.



And they did it with tremendous results from a ratings point of view, so obviously there is an audience for that sort of thing.
Of course they had ratings – they had dedicated TW audience AND new viewers, for whom they changed the format and meaning of the show. Of course people would watch it if only to know what it was about.

Remembering the theme of the topic - my main concern were what writers made characters to do in those circumstances. I was disappointed by means they used and how they used it.

[nightowl]

The same goes for viewers – it is my right to have an opinion about what I see, to agree or disagree with creator’s point of view and means they used.

Absolutely. Maybe it was a misread of your post, but the criticism of COE felt like you were saying they didn't have the right to create the show they did. If that wasn't your intention, then I'm sorry I read it that way.

And of course you're entitled to your opinion - just as any of us are here!



I understand that changes were necessary, and my main concern was not compact format or lack of character development. The writer either can write about their own character in new circumstances or they cannot. And yes, it was political drama – my main concern was not its political aspect, but what writers made characters to do in those circumstances.

I'm a little confused here - while there was the political drama going on, it was very much involving the TW team - mainly because it was the politics of the situation that eliminated the team's ability to figure this thing out. And I found the fact that certain elements of the government would turn on Torchwood as being incredibly in character. It wouldn't be the first time that an organization was sacrificed for political expediency, thus crippling them when they were needed most.




I don’t “have a problem” but I strongly disagree that killing first two protagonists and then another one is good for show.

I read your previous comment that COE wasn't Torchwood because of what happened to the characters. I was pointing out that it was no different than what happened with S2.

A lot of people have argued that killing off so many major characters so quickly was wrong. That they should have shown us how the diminished team dealt with the loss of two key members before moving onwards. But that's not the story they chose to tell. And it was their prerogative to do so, which is what I said before.



So, we must ASSUME that Jack was so bad during his pre-Doctor life that all CoE drama happened to punish him for his previous sins? Why? Do you really think that writers had that message for their audience? So, the other personages around him exist only as background? Must we see his suffering as some kind of atonement for his supposed sins? But atonement not equals drama.
Anyway, I strongly disagree. I don’t see the connection between Jack’s actions in previous seasons or in DW and CoE as supposed retribution for something he may or may not did previously.

Actually, we don't have to assume. Jack has told us in episodes that he wasn't proud of the man he was before, or some of the things he had to do. I'm not saying he was so bad about anything - what I was saying was that in his long life, something is going to come back and bite him in the arse. It's more of a law of averages than anything else.

Did the writers have a message for the audience? One could argue yes - that human nature is such that people are willing to sacrifice others for their own gain. That sometimes there are no great solutions. Or maybe there is no message at all, but they wanted to take the viewer on the journey they did as a kind of global "what if?"

RTD has said he had a specific destination for Jack and he needed to get him to that point. Whether we find out what that point is depends on whether there will be another series of TW that will show us that.



Yes, they were. They suffered, but remained relatively safe and sound, ready for new challenges. That’s part of fantastic entourage necessary for every sci-fi show – the heroes (the team here) must preserve. Exit Wounds was special because it was some kind of closure, the beginning of the end – you said yourself that “RTD had the idea of a political drama of this type for years so one could say that he shoehorned TW in to an existing idea”.

Actually, I was arguing the point of them being victorious. In those episodes, they weren't - in Meat, they lost the ability to save the space whale, Ianto nearly got killed and Rhys was shot. So they survived, but didn't do what they wanted to do. In Out of the Rain, they lost most of the souls. In Adrift, it showed that they couldn't save everyone and could only tuck them away and make their lives as comfortable as possible. Exit Wounds was exactly what the title says.

And yes, RTD shoehorned TW into an existing idea - that's his right to do, and for a lot of people it worked.




Of course they had ratings – they had dedicated TW audience AND new viewers, for whom they changed the format and meaning of the show. Of course people would watch it if only to know what it was about.

Remembering the theme of the topic - my main concern were what writers made characters to do in those circumstances. I was disappointed by means they used and how they used it.

Please don't misunderstand - I'm not saying that COE was perfect. There are things that made most people go "huh" (walking into Thames House the way they did was one of them) and say "this isn't the way the team should act."

Having said that, I could point to countless times in other episodes where they each did stupid things that shouldn't have been the way they "should" act, but they did. After all, they're only human (well, mostly human in Jack's case) and sometimes you run into the fire without thinking. It's sometimes stupid, but after all, that's what happens.

And while you were disappointed, and while I certainly didn't want to see Ianto die as he did, I also accept that was the story they wanted to tell and respect that.

Suzanne - I do have to admit I haven't watched the series recently, but Aimee and I were just talking about the fact that we should re-watch. I wonder if this time knowing the outcome I would come to your conclusion or not.

Will have to find time to do that at some point and see whether my opinions on the writing changes.

[Weis]

while there was the political drama going on, it was very much involving the TW team - mainly because it was the politics of the situation that eliminated the team's ability to figure this thing out. And I found the fact that certain elements of the government would turn on Torchwood as being incredibly in character. It wouldn't be the first time that an organization was sacrificed for political expediency, thus crippling them when they were needed most
I think political drama and show as fantastic as Torchwood do not mix well. If writers wanted play it like this with outcome like CoE as one of “what if” – sure they could. But I think that kind of reality clashes with previous Torchwood concept. I’d prefer less dramatic and more constructive outcome. But if they want to play drama – fine. They did, Torchwood is gone.
Though I’ll never agree that CoE events were somehow related to Jack’ possible sins, no matter what he said about his past. It would be too much of assumption. Sorry, here we probably better agree to differ.

[madmadammim]

I really enjoy reading debates on this. There are lots of interesting points. :read:

I saw CofE before I saw S1 and 2, so perhaps I have a different perspective on it. I've watched all 3 series more times than I'm going to admit since though, and there is one thing that always stood out as strange to me.

What were Jack and Ianto supposed to be thinking in Day 4?? Don't get me wrong, I am sorry that Ianto died, but can accept it from the point of view of telling a story. Yet I can't really understand why he died. What did they hope to achieve by the confrontation? :dontknow: Maybe I'm just missing something, if so please put me right!

I loved CofE for lots of reasons. The drama was compelling and emotional (John Frobisher's final scene was gut wrenching), loved the characters, and that they still found room for a little humor (the beans are ready :laugh2: ). But I thought it was a shame that so many aspects which could have been compelling in a later series were killed before they had a chance to bloom. For example, the relationship between Jack and Ianto, which had never really been explored before, Ianto's background and family, and Jack's daughter and grandson. Seems a lot to lose in 5 eps!

Forgive my ramble please. When I start I don't know when to stop!! :rolleyes:

[vegakapera]

I really enjoy reading debates on this. There are lots of interesting points. :read:

I saw CofE before I saw S1 and 2, so perhaps I have a different perspective on it. I've watched all 3 series more times than I'm going to admit since though, and there is one thing that always stood out as strange to me.

What were Jack and Ianto supposed to be thinking in Day 4?? Don't get me wrong, I am sorry that Ianto died, but can accept it from the point of view of telling a story. Yet I can't really understand why he died. What did they hope to achieve by the confrontation? :dontknow: Maybe I'm just missing something, if so please put me right!

I loved CofE for lots of reasons. The drama was compelling and emotional (John Frobisher's final scene was gut wrenching), loved the characters, and that they still found room for a little humor (the beans are ready :laugh2: ). But I thought it was a shame that so many aspects which could have been compelling in a later series were killed before they had a chance to bloom. For example, the relationship between Jack and Ianto, which had never really been explored before, Ianto's background and family, and Jack's daughter and grandson. Seems a lot to lose in 5 eps!

Forgive my ramble please. When I start I don't know when to stop!! :rolleyes:

I agree with everything you said here. It's like what I tried to say in my previous post, only better. :grin:

[nightowl]

Nothing to forgive there in your rambling, trust me!

You actually touch on one of the things that bothers a lot of fans - what happened in Day 4 in terms of Thames House was what they would consider un-Torchwood-like.

It was, in essence, a bluff. And I'm sure some people would argue that they thought they could get through with their threat of blackmail. It was Jack standing up in the way Ianto wanted him to, and the way he expected him to.

Doesn't mean it was smart. In fact, when you see GDL do his MST3K of that episode at cons, he points a lot of those facts out in a very funny running commentary.

And it's the 5 episodes that some people also feel contracted the storyline where things were cut out because they just didn't have time to do it. James Moran reportedly wrote a scene between Jack and Ianto that had to be cut for time. Too bad it wasn't shot, because at least people would have had it in the extras for the DVD.

The DVD was rushed out, actually released and shipped by Amazon prior to the final episode airing, which is how the spoilers of what happened got out. So there are a lot of things that are odd about the producing of that (especially the fact that there were no extras like previous releases) and I always wondered what they were thinking in that sort of a release when it hadn't aired elsewhere around the world. Seems like they were a bit stupid in that regard.

But for the series itself, I can't say I was disappointed. I may not be popular for saying so, but there it is.

[tigercheetah]

It's interesting to note that in his book 'A Writers Tale' RTD mentions that originally Children of Earth was going to be a one-off political thriller that had nothing to do with Torchwood at all.

I think this shows in several aspects of the series, including how much the guest cast dominate the story. It's already been mentioned that several scenes between Jack, Gwen, Ianto and Rhys had to be cut in order to make way for scenes involving many of the guest cast, including another Jack/Ianto moment in Day 3, which really was needed considering how things were going to end in day 4.

[Meef]

I still don't understand that if they had to cut so much of it, why don't they just release it on DVD? Every other show does that, a DVD with extra scenes. But for some reason it didn't happen that way.

[James]

So you mean there was alot of scenes out?! Oh I so want the extras on the DVD too now! Couldn't we email RTD and... you know demand it?! I would buy it!

[gisyl]

Couldn't we email RTD and... you know demand it?! I would buy it!
I think you have more chance with the BBC then with RTD for that,though.

See,my idea is that the Torchwood team thought they could handle everything and maybe got a bit careless.
Afterall,they have gotten away in the past with what some "reckless" behavior but in this case the alien wasn`t impressed and outnumbered them.

[ElectroxGirl]

It's interesting to note that in his book 'A Writers Tale' RTD mentions that originally Children of Earth was going to be a one-off political thriller that had nothing to do with Torchwood at all.

I think this shows in several aspects of the series, including how much the guest cast dominate the story. It's already been mentioned that several scenes between Jack, Gwen, Ianto and Rhys had to be cut in order to make way for scenes involving many of the guest cast, including another Jack/Ianto moment in Day 3, which really was needed considering how things were going to end in day 4.

At The Hub Susan Brown (who played Bridget Spears) said that RTD kept writing news scenes in for her. So they might have been able to keep some of the scenes with Torchwood in without those extra scenes.

[Nikki-B]

So you mean there was alot of scenes out?! Oh I so want the extras on the DVD too now! Couldn't we email RTD and... you know demand it?! I would buy it!

It seams to me that RTD does not really reaspond to fans demands. :wink:

As for all the questions asked in this thread, it´s very interesting things that´s being poited out. However I´d like to wait to see what they will come up with in the next season (wich I hope wont take til forever to come out). Maybe everything will be cleared up then. None of us knows do we?

I am a hardcore TW fan and I have faith in that RTD and the others will come up with something equally great to the previous seasons.

Lot´s of love!

[tigercheetah]

]At The Hub Susan Brown (who played Bridget Spears) said that RTD kept writing news scenes in for her.

This was also mentioned in a magazine interview and clearly shows how COE was just as much about the characters in Government as it was about Jack, Gwen and Ianto.

COE was a great piece of television in general but Jack, Gwen and Ianto didn't get as much screentime as maybe they should have done. If COE hadn't been a Torchwood story, a young child would still have been sacrificed at the end and a family would still have been torn apart as a result.

[nightowl]

The question is whether those scenes were shot or whether they were cut before shooting began because in the read through they timed it and realized that once they added in the action they weren't going to have time to keep it all in.

I would love for the first (ie, a director's cut where it is interwoven into the original story like they did with Independence Day) but think the reality of it is that those scenes weren't shot.

Now having said that, JB has said he goofed off in the gym scene where Eve pulled the sheet away from his face and he had silly makeup on and started singing. I would have thought that the cameras would have been rolling for that but there were no outtakes.

Always wished someone had asked about that at one of the cons, just to find out if any of it ever existed.

[madmadammim]

Thanks for the replies. I'm glad my ramble wasn't too painful!

I had wondered why the DVD seemed so "basic" but hadn't realised it had been released so quickly, so thank you Nightowl for answering a question I didn't know I had :good:




COE was a great piece of television in general but Jack, Gwen and Ianto didn't get as much screentime as maybe they should have done. If COE hadn't been a Torchwood story, a young child would still have been sacrificed at the end and a family would still have been torn apart as a result.

I think this really sums up my feelings on the whole thing. It was gripping TV drama (and what sparked my interest in Torchwood having missed most of the episodes when they were aired). I watched it all through in one sitting at the end of the week, and I loved it.

When I watched again as the third series of an amazing show it just didn't seem to fit with the 26 episodes I had just seen.

What doesn't help for me also is that it seemed to destroy much of what made the show what it was, a comment I have seen many fans make. Whilst I do have faith that it could come back from that, the lack of news on a new series really makes me wonder.

Now I've written another novel! I'm off back into my corner :blusher:

I really like this forum, and do mean to get on more often than I do. Why isn't there a bit of alien tech which adds enough time to the day to do things you actually enjoy?? :search:

[madmadammim]

Thanks for the replies. I'm glad my ramble wasn't too painful :rolleyes:

I had wondered why the DVD seemed so "basic" but hadn't realised it had been released so quickly, so thank you Nightowl for answering a question I didn't know I had :ok:




COE was a great piece of television in general but Jack, Gwen and Ianto didn't get as much screentime as maybe they should have done. If COE hadn't been a Torchwood story, a young child would still have been sacrificed at the end and a family would still have been torn apart as a result.

I think this sums up my feelings on the whole thing. It was fantastic TV drama, I watched the whole thing through in one run as soon as the week was over. It was how I became hooked as I missed the original airings of the first 2 series.

However, when I watched it again as the third series of an amazing show, it didn't seem to fit with the 26 episodes I had just seen.

The other thing which really gets me is how much they destroyed from the original show. I have seen the same comment made many times by fans. I do have belief that the show could come back from that, but coupled with the lack of news on a Series 4 it makes me wonder...

Now I've written another novel! Time to get back in my corner :blusher:

I really like this forum. I keep intending to get here more often than I do. Why isn't there a bit of alien tech that gives you enough hours in a day to actually do something you enjoy :na:

[nightowl]

If you find that alien tech, please pass it around! I think we could all use that!

:grin:

[Meef]

Thanks for the replies. I'm glad my ramble wasn't too painful!

I had wondered why the DVD seemed so "basic" but hadn't realised it had been released so quickly, so thank you Nightowl for answering a question I didn't know I had :good:




COE was a great piece of television in general but Jack, Gwen and Ianto didn't get as much screentime as maybe they should have done. If COE hadn't been a Torchwood story, a young child would still have been sacrificed at the end and a family would still have been torn apart as a result.

I think this really sums up my feelings on the whole thing. It was gripping TV drama (and what sparked my interest in Torchwood having missed most of the episodes when they were aired). I watched it all through in one sitting at the end of the week, and I loved it.

When I watched again as the third series of an amazing show it just didn't seem to fit with the 26 episodes I had just seen.

What doesn't help for me also is that it seemed to destroy much of what made the show what it was, a comment I have seen many fans make. Whilst I do have faith that it could come back from that, the lack of news on a new series really makes me wonder.

Now I've written another novel! I'm off back into my corner :blusher:

I really like this forum, and do mean to get on more often than I do. Why isn't there a bit of alien tech which adds enough time to the day to do things you actually enjoy?? :search:

You don't need to hide in the corner. Come out into the sun and hang with us!

[Kaleidoscope]

The DVD was rushed out, actually released and shipped by Amazon prior to the final episode airing, which is how the spoilers of what happened got out. So there are a lot of things that are odd about the producing of that (especially the fact that there were no extras like previous releases) and I always wondered what they were thinking in that sort of a release when it hadn't aired elsewhere around the world. Seems like they were a bit stupid in that regard.
The fact the DVD was rushed out the way it was, is probably why there aren't any extras with it. They didn't have time to think about what to put in, what would amuse the fans etc. They were more concerned with having a release date on top of the series airing! In the movie world, traditionally there's 17 weeks between a film being released and the DVD coming out. I suspect it's longer with TV show boxsets (although I don't actually know.) So why the BBC thought it was a bright idea to rush out CoE is anyone's guess. I know some people pre-ordered it before the show aired then cancelled their order after or whilst watching it because they felt let down.

I've never wanted the boxset. I was saying to Ash last night, if they so a S4 *hopes* and it's good - preferably back to the 13 episode run - I'll probably buy it. But CoE just bugged me.

[madmadammim]

You don't need to hide in the corner. Come out into the sun and hang with us!

I'll try - but you could be really sorry you said that :lol2:
If you find that alien tech, please pass it around! I think we could all use that!

:grin:

It's only fair to share. Could be a long hunt though! :dontknow:

[nightowl]

Actually, it's now a growing trend to box the DVD fast - James Cameron ticked off movie theatres by cutting the number of weeks Avatar was showing by releasing the DVD shortly after the end of the run - again, another DVD with no extras. In fact, fans cynically thought that was deliberate so they could release a different version later on with extras or a director's cut or something that would make the diehard fans have to buy yet another revamped version of the disk (a bad habit that Paramount had with the Trek franchise.)

There was a story not too long ago about how most of the movie studios are doing the same, cutting the theatrical run because then they don't have to give a cut to the theatres and can just use it as a springboard to sell the DVDs. With that trend, they might just kill the theatre chains in the process.

But back on topic, that's why I wish someone had asked at one of the cons if there had been stuff shot and whether it might end up being released at some point. The minute I heard that they were releasing the TW DVD that fast I just shook my head - now if the BBC's plan of a around the world simultaneous airing of the series had worked, then the DVD release shortly thereafter would have made sense. But it didn't work out that way and so fans got the DVDs before the show aired in their own countries.

I assume by that point that they realized that they weren't going to get the around the world airing the DVD was already in the production schedule for release and they just didn't stop it.

[Undead Medic]

If you find that alien tech, please pass it around! I think we could all use that!

:grin:

All alien tech stays on the base.

Yeah right, Jack. Good one.

:laugh:

[nightowl]

:laugh2: