People have faith!!!! [Archive]

nottinghamgirl101

11th July 2009, 00:29

[spoiler:138mpp8m]To start off with i can completely understand how people are feeling about the ending of the current series of TORCHWOOD but I CANNOT understand how people are writing it off so quickly. . . .

I believe that the ending was very emotional and showed how dangerous TORCHWOOD is and the SACRIFICES ALL of its members had to makw and I was GUTTED when Ianto died but you cannot just turn your backs on what has to be called one of the greatest shows on the tele. IT'S BRILLIANT.

I also don't know why people are calling Captain Jack a monster. . HE SACRIFICED HIS GRANDSON to save the earth and millions of innocent children . . how many of us would do that?????? He is a hero and people shouldn't be writing him off so easily!!!!! The poor man is so gutted!!!!

With RTD stating quite clearly that series four has already been written and on the way we can all look forward to another fantastic season with some fantasic new faces (and hopefully some old ones)

People have faith

True fans will watch and KEEP WATCHING!!!!!![/spoiler:138mpp8m]

[mod="Mardave Mad":138mpp8m]Please do not use capitals for thread titles. It's classed as shouting as is against the forum rules.[/mod:138mpp8m]

Lucifus

11th July 2009, 00:58

[spoiler:27lfwndb]I loved this series because it was exactly what i was expecting it to be. Dark, gritty, emotional and showed real moral choices that hurt people either way. Either the whole race dies, lots of children are taken or a single child dies. Jack imo did the right thing. People may moan that he forced a child to die in front of his mother however other children were forcibly taken from their parents which is just as bad. One child to save the life of many. People may find it disgusting but the alternative is also disgusting.

I love Dr who because its normally light hearted and fun, however Torchwood has always shown the darker side and its why i love it so much. Unfortunately the ending of this series makes me wonder if there will be another.[/spoiler:27lfwndb]

Rysohl

11th July 2009, 02:27

Let me just say, I liked it for the characters...

[spoiler:9rycld8b]now with Ianto dead and Jack run off there is nothing to appeal to me...
I like dark, but this was just trying to hard... Tearing apart the series unnecessarily...

Thats just my opinion anyway[/spoiler:9rycld8b]

Asta Karen

11th July 2009, 03:36

[spoiler:34t2zv0m]I cant see how they are gonna continue this.
With Ianto gone, Jack off in space and Gwen with a kid I'm not sure if another series would interest me at all. Who would be in it?!?!?!

Ok. Let's say Jack comes back. I'd watch the first episode and give it a chance...but they better frikkin bring back Ianto! :beg:[/spoiler:34t2zv0m]

PterodactylJo

11th July 2009, 04:54

[spoiler:lttyj6hx]Not if the show's being changed completely. And Ianto was the most important part of the show for me. So no thanks, I'll pass. :sad: Sorry.[/spoiler:lttyj6hx]

xvoguex

11th July 2009, 09:36

[spoiler:3laxd7bf]Not if the show's being changed completely. And Ianto was the most important part of the show for me. So no thanks, I'll pass. :sad: Sorry.[/spoiler:3laxd7bf]

[spoiler:3laxd7bf]I agree! whats left of the old original torchwood that we have all grown to love? nothing! and most of this wasn't even set in Cardiff. I loved the fact it was in Cardiff with the Hub,Rift, SUV and Ianto and the old opening. I was hoping that they would go into series 4 with the 3 of them looks like thats no going to happen. I will watch series 4 (if they do one) just to see where it goes. If it carrys on like this I'm not sure I'll watch. I do have to say Children of Earth was great well written and acted.
But I felt it wasn't same Torchwood, they have to bring back Ianto to make me watch another series if they keep this new format. I was really enjoying it up until the point they killed him off :cryin:[/spoiler:3laxd7bf]

Lucifus

11th July 2009, 11:46

[spoiler:anym280y]I agree! whats left of the old original torchwood that we have all grown to love? nothing! and most of this wasn't even set in Cardiff. I loved the fact it was in Cardiff with the Hub,Rift, SUV and Ianto and the old opening. I was hoping that they would go into series 4 with the 3 of them looks like thats no going to happen. I will watch series 4 (if they do one) just to see where it goes. If it carrys on like this I'm not sure I'll watch. I do have to say Children of Earth was great well written and acted.
But I felt it wasn't same Torchwood, they have to bring back Ianto to make me watch another series if they keep this new format. I was really enjoying it up until the point they killed him off :cryin:[/spoiler:anym280y][/quote]

[spoiler:anym280y]It was filmed in Cardiff and Wales with most of the stuff of london just being fly bys. Most of this series was filmed in the national assembly for wales and Cardiff city hall. Pretty much the same as Dr who. Even if its made to look like its not set in Cardiff then still whats the problem? A large part of it was supposed to be Cardiff and its good to mix the locations about a bit.[/spoiler:anym280y]

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 19:15

[spoiler:3bbfo45x]To start off with i can completely understand how people are feeling about the ending of the current series of TORCHWOOD but I CANNOT understand how people are writing it off so quickly. . . .

I believe that the ending was very emotional and showed how dangerous TORCHWOOD is and the SACRIFICES ALL of its members had to makw and I was GUTTED when Ianto died but you cannot just turn your backs on what has to be called one of the greatest shows on the tele. IT'S BRILLIANT.

I also don't know why people are calling Captain Jack a monster. . HE SACRIFICED HIS GRANDSON to save the earth and millions of innocent children . . how many of us would do that?????? He is a hero and people shouldn't be writing him off so easily!!!!! The poor man is so gutted!!!!

With RTD stating quite clearly that series four has already been written and on the way we can all look forward to another fantastic season with some fantasic new faces (and hopefully some old ones)

People have faith

True fans will watch and KEEP WATCHING!!!!!![/spoiler:3bbfo45x]

[mod="Mardave Mad":3bbfo45x]Please do not use capitals for thread titles. It's classed as shouting as is against the forum rules.[/mod:3bbfo45x]

[spoiler:3bbfo45x]The thing which makes Jack a monster for doing it, is the fact that he did it.[/spoiler:3bbfo45x] When Spock made that "needs of the many" speech, he was sacrificing himself by his own choice, because that was what his logic showed as being the most rational choice. [spoiler:3bbfo45x]Jack did not give Steven the chance to make the choice himself, he refused to even answer the questions Steven asked him, totally closing out a scared child who clearly adored him as an uncle. He then never transfered some of his own life force over to Steven (as he has been seen to do to others in the past), which would have brought him back. Sending a child to it's death (for whatever reason) made him a monster. Using Gwen and Reece to get him the Vortex Manipulator so he could just run away, made him a coward...[/spoiler:3bbfo45x] Maybe the thousand years he spent buried under Cardiff drove him round the bend...
Whatever the reasons, RTD has succeeded in taking one of the UKs most popular characters, and making him no better than he was when he first met the Doctor, a completely and utterly unnecessary character assassination.

Jack was my favorite companion... :(

gisyl

11th July 2009, 19:21

[spoiler:3mmz47dl]I still don`t get why people call Jack a monster or say that he has gone darker.
Would it been better if he had let it happen that there were children taken away? It was clear that the only way to win over 456 was to use a child and Jack had to make the tough call to use it`s own grandson.I doubt he had pleasure in it,in fact the one moment hesitation he had before pressing that key was clear. as for not answering his grandson,well he knew what was gonna happen and I think he knew that if he would look up he would break apart which is what happend after he started the whole transmitting. As for Jack going darker,he always had that dark side in him(countrycide for example and he just lost 3 people he loved.[/spoiler:3mmz47dl]

ElectroxGirl

11th July 2009, 19:22

[spoiler:1ns03bvf]Jack did not give Steven the chance to make the choice himself, he refused to even answer the questions Steven asked him, totally closing out a scared child who clearly adored him as an uncle. He then never transfered some of his own life force over to Steven (as he has been seen to do to others in the past), which would have brought him back. Sending a child to it's death (for whatever reason) made him a monster.[/spoiler:1ns03bvf]
[spoiler:1ns03bvf]If he hadn't done that you'd call him a monster for sacrificing millions of childrens lives. I'm sorry but it's what he had to do. He didn't tell him because how exactly do you think Steven would have reacted? It was one life or millions. He had to do it. This doesn't make him a monster. You could see he didn't want to do it but he knew he had to.[/spoiler:1ns03bvf]

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 19:32

[spoiler:26mvwpib]Jack did not give Steven the chance to make the choice himself, he refused to even answer the questions Steven asked him, totally closing out a scared child who clearly adored him as an uncle. He then never transfered some of his own life force over to Steven (as he has been seen to do to others in the past), which would have brought him back. Sending a child to it's death (for whatever reason) made him a monster.[/spoiler:26mvwpib]
[spoiler:26mvwpib]If he hadn't done that you'd call him a monster for sacrificing millions of childrens lives. I'm sorry but it's what he had to do. He didn't tell him because how exactly do you think Steven would have reacted? It was one life or millions. He had to do it. This doesn't make him a monster. You could see he didn't want to do it but he knew he had to.[/spoiler:26mvwpib]

[spoiler:26mvwpib]No, I wouldn't. That honor lay with the government. If Jack hadn't had access to Steven, then it might simply have been a case of possibly trying and failing to defeat Species 456, and the blame then having to rest squarely with the government. Maybe, had Steven taken a more active role in Jack's life (and the episode) then he might have volunteered to sacrifice himself, in the knowledge (and this is a crucial point) that it was within Jack's power to restore his life.
RTD has succeeded (through a very powerful story) of turning the lovable rogue, who was Captain Jack, into the Child Catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang... The pied piper of Torchwood... I totally agree, one life for millions. One does not need to be a Vulcan to appreciate the logic of the situation. The issue (or certainly my issue, at least) is that the decision was forced onto someone, rather than their own personal choice (like when the Doctor forced his ability to wipe Donna's mind upon her, against her own wishes, or when the memory-manipulating Adam forced horrific memories onto Ianto...)[/spoiler:26mvwpib]

ElectroxGirl

11th July 2009, 19:37

[quote="Captain James Harper":1u7b30y1]
[spoiler:1u7b30y1]Jack did not give Steven the chance to make the choice himself, he refused to even answer the questions Steven asked him, totally closing out a scared child who clearly adored him as an uncle. He then never transfered some of his own life force over to Steven (as he has been seen to do to others in the past), which would have brought him back. Sending a child to it's death (for whatever reason) made him a monster.[/spoiler:1u7b30y1]
[spoiler:1u7b30y1]If he hadn't done that you'd call him a monster for sacrificing millions of childrens lives. I'm sorry but it's what he had to do. He didn't tell him because how exactly do you think Steven would have reacted? It was one life or millions. He had to do it. This doesn't make him a monster. You could see he didn't want to do it but he knew he had to.[/spoiler:1u7b30y1]

[spoiler:1u7b30y1]No, I wouldn't. That honor lay with the government. If Jack hadn't had access to Steven, then it might simply have been a case of possibly trying and failing to defeat Species 456, and the blame then having to rest squarely with the government. Maybe, had Steven taken a more active role in Jack's life (and the episode) then he might have volunteered to sacrifice himself, in the knowledge (and this is a crucial point) that it was within Jack's power to restore his life.
RTD has succeeded (through a very powerful story) of turning the lovable rogue, who was Captain Jack, into the Child Catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang... The pied piper of Torchwood... I totally agree, one life for millions. One does not need to be a Vulcan to appreciate the logic of the situation. The issue (or certainly my issue, at least) is that the decision was forced onto someone, rather than their own personal choice (like when the Doctor forced his ability to wipe Donna's mind upon her, against her own wishes, or when the memory-manipulating Adam forced horrific memories onto Ianto...)[/spoiler:1u7b30y1][/quote:1u7b30y1]

[spoiler:1u7b30y1]Well who do you think would have agreed to that? No one would want it to happen to them but it needed to happen. And as Steven was the only child there it had to be him. And the case with Donna is that if the Doctor didn't wipe her mind she would have died. I'd rather she lived and forgot than she died.[/spoiler:1u7b30y1]

* laurie *

11th July 2009, 19:43

[spoiler:vjw72su2]im sorry jack had no choice whatsoever it was either one child steven or millions of children yes its not a nice decision either way but he made the right one he'd have been called evil no matter what he did and he couldnt have sacrificed himself as the show was all about children that was the point theres a clue in the title we knew it involved children so it was always going to be dark, and did you see the look on his face! in no way did he want to do it but he didnt have a choice, its made him a broken man anyway so its hardly like he got away with it, at the end it seemed like jack was just in his own personal hell ianto died then steven[/spoiler:vjw72su2]

peggy42

11th July 2009, 19:59

I like the darker side to Jack, he has demonstrated this side to himself in the past but what I thought I would never see him do was run away. No matter how bleak things got. Having said that the character has always seemed like the type of person who would return eventually

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 20:01

[quote="Captain James Harper":9y1lb8op]
[spoiler:9y1lb8op]Jack did not give Steven the chance to make the choice himself, he refused to even answer the questions Steven asked him, totally closing out a scared child who clearly adored him as an uncle. He then never transfered some of his own life force over to Steven (as he has been seen to do to others in the past), which would have brought him back. Sending a child to it's death (for whatever reason) made him a monster.[/spoiler:9y1lb8op]
[spoiler:9y1lb8op]If he hadn't done that you'd call him a monster for sacrificing millions of childrens lives. I'm sorry but it's what he had to do. He didn't tell him because how exactly do you think Steven would have reacted? It was one life or millions. He had to do it. This doesn't make him a monster. You could see he didn't want to do it but he knew he had to.[/spoiler:9y1lb8op]

[spoiler:9y1lb8op]No, I wouldn't. That honor lay with the government. If Jack hadn't had access to Steven, then it might simply have been a case of possibly trying and failing to defeat Species 456, and the blame then having to rest squarely with the government. Maybe, had Steven taken a more active role in Jack's life (and the episode) then he might have volunteered to sacrifice himself, in the knowledge (and this is a crucial point) that it was within Jack's power to restore his life.
RTD has succeeded (through a very powerful story) of turning the lovable rogue, who was Captain Jack, into the Child Catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang... The pied piper of Torchwood... I totally agree, one life for millions. One does not need to be a Vulcan to appreciate the logic of the situation. The issue (or certainly my issue, at least) is that the decision was forced onto someone, rather than their own personal choice (like when the Doctor forced his ability to wipe Donna's mind upon her, against her own wishes, or when the memory-manipulating Adam forced horrific memories onto Ianto...)[/spoiler:9y1lb8op]

[spoiler:9y1lb8op]Well who do you think would have agreed to that? No one would want it to happen to them but it needed to happen. And as Steven was the only child there it had to be him. And the case with Donna is that if the Doctor didn't wipe her mind she would have died. I'd rather she lived and forgot than she died.[/spoiler:9y1lb8op][/quote:9y1lb8op]

[spoiler:9y1lb8op]As I said above, had Steven known that Jack had the power to restore his life (which he did) then perhaps he would have had the courage to volunteer. The point, is that he was not given any such choice at all, neither, did Jack then simply restore his life afterwards? And why not? Surely his own grandson's life meant more to him than when he restored Ianto in Cyberwoman, or the other person he transfered life into to restore them...
As for Donna, yes, had the Doctor not wiped her mind, she would have died. I don't dispute that. But. You cannot ignore the fact that she said "No". She knew the outcome, but was prepared to endure it. She clearly would have rather died as she was, than go back to what she had been. As before, it's all about choice, or in these cases, an individual's lack of choice, and a decision being forced onto them.[/spoiler:9y1lb8op]

[spoiler:9y1lb8op]im sorry jack had no choice whatsoever it was either one child steven or millions of children yes its not a nice decision either way but he made the right one he'd have been called evil no matter what he did and he couldnt have sacrificed himself as the show was all about children that was the point theres a clue in the title we knew it involved children so it was always going to be dark, and did you see the look on his face! in no way did he want to do it but he didnt have a choice, its made him a broken man anyway so its hardly like he got away with it, at the end it seemed like jack was just in his own personal hell ianto died then steven[/spoiler:9y1lb8op]
[spoiler:9y1lb8op]There's no need for condescension, it does not prove anything... Had Jack tried and failed, then maybe, Season Four could have been about him punishing the government who had taken the action to sacrifice the other children. Then again, even that was a necessary sacrifice, as it was to protect the remainder of the population. It's not a case of Jack 'getting away with it', but a case of RTD deliberately writing him in such a way as to have not used his ability to save Steven after defeating Species 456, (maybe too much time had passed for him to have resurrected Ianto, but there was no such impediment for him to have not saved Steven, and everyone who was there, knew of his longevity, so it was not as if he was prevented to do so for fear of 'revealing his secret'...) And as for his feelings of Ianto, I felt that death scene proved it all. Ianto really was just a "part time shag" to Jack after all, as he never told Ianto that he loved him. Besides, Ianto was a manipulator who lied to everyone who worked with and cared for him, so was he really worth caring about after all?[/spoiler:9y1lb8op]

* laurie *

11th July 2009, 20:14

[spoiler:16qsijm7]are you saying jack can bring people back from the dead or am i reading that wrong? what proof have we got of that? ianto in the cyberwomen episode we didnt even know if he died in that episode im confused :S and also the government were punished in the end anyway well the ones who desereved it i cant remember her name but the women who was close to frobisher wore the contacts at the end and recorded everything they said and was going to release it, and also thats your opinion that jack thought of ianto as a 'part time shag' i dont see it that way at all just because he didnt say he loved him didnt mean he didnt care about him, jack was obviously distraught in the scene where ianto died so he meant something to him even if it wasnt love![/spoiler:16qsijm7]

Lennon

11th July 2009, 20:24

[spoiler:2uytxfrm]are you saying jack can bring people back from the dead or am i reading that wrong? what proof have we got of that? ianto in the cyberwomen episode we didnt even know if he died in that episode im confused :S and also the government were punished in the end anyway well the ones who desereved it i cant remember her name but the women who was close to frobisher wore the contacts at the end and recorded everything they said and was going to release it, and also thats your opinion that jack thought of ianto as a 'part time shag' i dont see it that way at all just because he didnt say he loved him didnt mean he didnt care about him, jack was obviously distraught in the scene where ianto died so he meant something to him even if it wasnt love![/spoiler:2uytxfrm]

[spoiler:2uytxfrm]Yeah, maybe saying ILY to Ianto would have been too hard for Jack knowing he can't die. RIP Ianto :crybye:[/spoiler:2uytxfrm]

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 20:35

[spoiler:j8ixmfyc]are you saying jack can bring people back from the dead or am i reading that wrong? what proof have we got of that? ianto in the cyberwomen episode we didnt even know if he died in that episode im confused :S and also the government were punished in the end anyway well the ones who desereved it i cant remember her name but the women who was close to frobisher wore the contacts at the end and recorded everything they said and was going to release it, and also thats your opinion that jack thought of ianto as a 'part time shag' i dont see it that way at all just because he didnt say he loved him didnt mean he didnt care about him, jack was obviously distraught in the scene where ianto died so he meant something to him even if it wasnt love![/spoiler:j8ixmfyc]
This bit doesn't need spoilers... :D
Yes, I am saying that Jack could bring people back from the dead. What proof is there? Well, Ianto in Cyberwoman is one example, yes, we do know that he was dead, because everyone else who was attacked thus by a Cyberman (including Jack himself) died. So yes, he was dead, and Jack brought him back to life. I am sure he also transfered life into another person in one of the first few episodes, but I forget who it was... I admit, he did it much less as the series progressed, but, the point remains that he had been previously shown to have the ability to resurrect people who had (literally) just died.

[spoiler:j8ixmfyc]The woman who pretty much told the PM that she would be taking over, was the first to suggest the criteria for selection, so she certainly wasn't being punished... Either way, they still had to stay around for the fall out. Jack chose to run away as soon as he was able to.[/spoiler:j8ixmfyc]

It is not my opinion that Ianto was Jack's part time shag, Owen called him such in a previous episode. [spoiler:j8ixmfyc]The events surrounding Ianto's death simply confirmed Owen's opinion as being correct. Jack did not tell Ianto he loved him. As simple as that. There was no need for him to have withheld that information if he genuinely did love Ianto. Again, Ianto was a liar and a manipulator, this was proven by what his sister told Gwen. She made the point that no-one (including the audience) knew the real Ianto. Ianto was a liar, acted inappropriately in crisis situations, and was ultimately the most boring and pointless character (as anything he said could potentially have been a lie) so I couldn't care less that he is dead...[/spoiler:j8ixmfyc]

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 20:38

[spoiler:2qpgrpyi]are you saying jack can bring people back from the dead or am i reading that wrong? what proof have we got of that? ianto in the cyberwomen episode we didnt even know if he died in that episode im confused :S and also the government were punished in the end anyway well the ones who desereved it i cant remember her name but the women who was close to frobisher wore the contacts at the end and recorded everything they said and was going to release it, and also thats your opinion that jack thought of ianto as a 'part time shag' i dont see it that way at all just because he didnt say he loved him didnt mean he didnt care about him, jack was obviously distraught in the scene where ianto died so he meant something to him even if it wasnt love![/spoiler:2qpgrpyi]

[spoiler:2qpgrpyi]Yeah, maybe saying ILY to Ianto would have been too hard for Jack knowing he can't die. RIP Ianto :crybye:[/spoiler:2qpgrpyi]
[spoiler:2qpgrpyi]Maybe there was only a short time limit which Jack could only resurrect people inside of, after their deaths, and as both he and Ianto were dead for some time, maybe it was too late for him to have resurrected him, but, Steven literally died in front of him, with no such delay to have prevented him from resurrecting him. RTD wrote him as making the choice to not resurrect him...[/spoiler:2qpgrpyi]

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 20:38

* laurie *

11th July 2009, 20:41

[quote="Captain James Harper":2jhj98h5]
Yes, I am saying that Jack could bring people back from the dead. What proof is there? Well, Ianto in Cyberwoman is one example, yes, we do know that he was dead, because everyone else who was attacked thus by a Cyberman (including Jack himself) died. So yes, he was dead, and Jack brought him back to life. I am sure he also transfered life into another person in one of the first few episodes, but I forget who it was... I admit, he did it much less as the series progressed, but, the point remains that he had been previously shown to have the ability to resurrect people who had (literally) just died.

I thought Ianto had just been knocked out... ???[/quote:2jhj98h5]

so did i and i think alot of people did iv never really read that people thought he was dead before thats why i was confused :S

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 20:43

I can't think of any time Jack brought somebody back to life - correct me if I'm wrong though, as I'd love to know.

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 20:47

Yes, I am saying that Jack could bring people back from the dead. What proof is there? Well, Ianto in Cyberwoman is one example, yes, we do know that he was dead, because everyone else who was attacked thus by a Cyberman (including Jack himself) died. So yes, he was dead, and Jack brought him back to life. I am sure he also transfered life into another person in one of the first few episodes, but I forget who it was... I admit, he did it much less as the series progressed, but, the point remains that he had been previously shown to have the ability to resurrect people who had (literally) just died.

Even though I'd love for it to be true, for Ianto to have died in Cyberwoman and to have been brought back to life by Jack, there is no actual canon proof that actually happened. We might have interpreted it that way, but for all we know, Ianto was merely unconscious.

As for the other incident. That was a girl posessed by an energy sucking being. To that creature Jack was life giving, yes, but only because he couldn't die, so, no matter how much energy/life the creature sucked out of him, Jack kept on living and thus kept on giving.

Also, if Jack really could give life, he would not have had to search for the second mitten/glove to resurrect Owen, and he also would not have let Tosh die, or anyone really.

So, no, I don't think Jack can give life.

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 20:48

I can't think of any time Jack brought somebody back to life - correct me if I'm wrong though, as I'd love to know.
He didn't, Trudy, at least, not as far as I know (as I've mentioned above)

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 20:50

* laurie *

11th July 2009, 20:55

i was begining to doubt my own mind as well, but it just doesnt make sense that jack can bring people back from the dead, it aint heroes :laugh:

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 21:01

It is not my opinion that Ianto was Jack's part time shag, Owen called him such in a previous episode. [spoiler:3h4ncb7c]The events surrounding Ianto's death simply confirmed Owen's opinion as being correct. Jack did not tell Ianto he loved him. As simple as that. There was no need for him to have withheld that information if he genuinely did love Ianto. Again, Ianto was a liar and a manipulator, this was proven by what his sister told Gwen. She made the point that no-one (including the audience) knew the real Ianto. Ianto was a liar, acted inappropriately in crisis situations, and was ultimately the most boring and pointless character (as anything he said could potentially have been a lie) so I couldn't care less that he is dead...[/spoiler:3h4ncb7c]

Owen said those words in a fit of rage, because Ianto stood in the way of him getting his beloved Diane back (or at least, thinking he could get her back)
[spoiler:3h4ncb7c]You can't really believe that Owen's opinion is proven right approx. two years after he said it, just because Jack didn't say I love you? That is just grasping straws.
Jack and Ianto were in a relationship, no matter how much Jack didn't like the word couple. It was clear in Ianto's death scene that Jack truly didn't want Ianto to leave him, he said as much.
As for my take on him not saying the words, he didn't want to believe Ianto was dying, didn't want him to leave, and imho, Jack saying the words would only make Ianto's death more real, the last thing he wanted. Remember, the first thing he said after Ianto said I love you, was 'don't', which I took to mean, don't say it, don't make this the end, don't leave me.
To me, that meant so much more than saying the words just because Ianto was dying. Ianto knew Jack loved, and, like me, he also knew that Jack had no trouble expressing his love through anything but the words. He didn't need to say it, for Ianto to know the truth.[/spoiler:3h4ncb7c]

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 21:08

[quote="Captain James Harper":3vslrr7u]
Yes, I am saying that Jack could bring people back from the dead. What proof is there? Well, Ianto in Cyberwoman is one example, yes, we do know that he was dead, because everyone else who was attacked thus by a Cyberman (including Jack himself) died. So yes, he was dead, and Jack brought him back to life. I am sure he also transfered life into another person in one of the first few episodes, but I forget who it was... I admit, he did it much less as the series progressed, but, the point remains that he had been previously shown to have the ability to resurrect people who had (literally) just died.

I thought Ianto had just been knocked out... ???[/quote:3vslrr7u]
Since when are people 'just knocked out' by cyber 'deletion'? It is always shown as fatal?

I can't think of any time Jack brought somebody back to life - correct me if I'm wrong though, as I'd love to know.
As above, Ianto in Cyberwoman. I forget who the other person was in one of the first episodes of season one, but Jack resurrected them by kissing them

Even though I'd love for it to be true, for Ianto to have died in Cyberwoman and to have been brought back to life by Jack, there is no actual canon proof that actually happened. We might have interpreted it that way, but for all we know, Ianto was merely unconscious.

As for the other incident. That was a girl posessed by an energy sucking being. To that creature Jack was life giving, yes, but only because he couldn't die, so, no matter how much energy/life the creature sucked out of him, Jack kept on living and thus kept on giving.

Also, if Jack really could give life, he would not have had to search for the second mitten/glove to resurrect Owen, and he also would not have let Tosh die, or anyone really.

So, no, I don't think Jack can give life.
Don't be ludicrous. Cyber 'deletion' is always fatal. Ianto was dead, and Ianto revived him by kissing him (it was not a case of mouth to mouth resuscitation) That is a canon fact clearly shown in the episode. For someone to draw any other conclusion from what was shown, then they are incorrect, as what was shown was quite clear.

Owen [spoiler:3vslrr7u]and Ianto were both[/spoiler:3vslrr7u]dead for a period of time, where in Cyberwoman, Ianto had literally only just died. Admitedly, the length of time has never been stated as being relevent, but it is is a reasonable supposition that Jack can resurrect someone who has literally just dropped dead, but not someone who has been dead for a period of time...
As you say, there was no need for Tosh to have died, but, that's how the episode was written, those're the breaks...

* laurie *

11th July 2009, 21:11

ianto wasnt 'cyber deleted' though was he? she just sort of threw him lol

ElectroxGirl

11th July 2009, 21:14

Ianto was only thrown. Not "cyber deleted". And I think the person you're talking about in series one is Carys. But she wasn't dead. He didn't bring anyone back to life.

gisyl

11th July 2009, 21:14

If Jack could give life,don`t you think he would have done that?
He would give Ianto a kiss in a heartbeat and he certainly would give his grandson the kiss of life if he knew he could save him.
It is has never been canon that Jack could ressurect people by giving then a kiss of life.
In fact RTD nor JB have said anything about that aswell and I would think that if Jack could they would talk about that.

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 21:18

ianto wasnt 'cyber deleted' though was he? she just sort of threw him lol

That's the way I remember it - he was, erm, tossed away...

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 21:19

Owen said those words in a fit of rage, because Ianto stood in the way of him getting his beloved Diane back (or at least, thinking he could get her back)
It doesn't matter why Owen said them, the fact is that he said them, and they were proven true.

[spoiler:14xvfrj8]You can't really believe that Owen's opinion is proven right approx. two years after he said it, just because Jack didn't say I love you? That is just grasping straws.[/spoiler:14xvfrj8]
[spoiler:14xvfrj8]It's not grasping at straws at all. The fact remains that Jack could have told Ianto that he loved him (if he had actually loved him), but he did not. Ianto reacted to that, and then changed his tactics, and then begged not to be forgotten, which Jack readily promised not to do.[/spoiler:14xvfrj8]

[spoiler:14xvfrj8]Jack and Ianto were in a relationship, no matter how much Jack didn't like the word couple. It was clear in Ianto's death scene that Jack truly didn't want Ianto to leave him, he said as much.[/spoiler:14xvfrj8]
I don't deny that. What I am saying, is that the relationship clearly meant more to Ianto than it did to Jack[spoiler:14xvfrj8], and Jack's reaction to Ianto's death is proof of that.[/spoiler:14xvfrj8]

[spoiler:14xvfrj8]As for my take on him not saying the words, he didn't want to believe Ianto was dying, didn't want him to leave, and imho, Jack saying the words would only make Ianto's death more real, the last thing he wanted. Remember, the first thing he said after Ianto said I love you, was 'don't', which I took to mean, don't say it, don't make this the end, don't leave me.
To me, that meant so much more than saying the words just because Ianto was dying. Ianto knew Jack loved, and, like me, he also knew that Jack had no trouble expressing his love through anything but the words. He didn't need to say it, for Ianto to know the truth.[/spoiler:14xvfrj8]

[spoiler:14xvfrj8]Sorry, but that's just putting your own spin on the relationship. A creature as long lived as Jack, is not going to make the pointless request for a loved one to not die. He said "Don't", because Ianto said he loved him.

Regardless of any of that, what Ianto's sister said to Gwen proved all there was to prove about Ianto: He was a liar, and lied to everyone around him, including Jack, on an almost constant basis, he deserves no sympathy, other than the fact that he died trying to do the right thing to defend the Earth.[/spoiler:14xvfrj8]

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 21:26

I thought Ianto had just been knocked out... ???
Since when are people 'just knocked out' by cyber 'deletion'? It is always shown as fatal?[/quote:1ia3no98]
I agree with Timeless, ElectroxGirl, Laurie and Gysil. Ianto was NOT cyber deleted, he was grabbed by his throat and thrown in the gutter (or whatever that puddle is called).

[quote="Timeless-II":1ia3no98]I can't think of any time Jack brought somebody back to life - correct me if I'm wrong though, as I'd love to know.
As above, Ianto in Cyberwoman. I forget who the other person was in one of the first episodes of season one, but Jack resurrected them by kissing them [/quote:1ia3no98]
I think the person you're talking about in series one is Carys. But she wasn't dead. He didn't bring anyone back to life.
No, Carys was not dead, she was posessed by an energy sucking creature, as I stated above.

[quote=Cayendi]
Even though I'd love for it to be true, for Ianto to have died in Cyberwoman and to have been brought back to life by Jack, there is no actual canon proof that actually happened. We might have interpreted it that way, but for all we know, Ianto was merely unconscious.
Don't be ludicrous. Cyber 'deletion' is always fatal. Ianto was dead, and Ianto revived him by kissing him (it was not a case of mouth to mouth resuscitation) That is a canon fact clearly shown in the episode. For someone to draw any other conclusion from what was shown, then they are incorrect, as what was shown was quite clear.You may not agree with my opinin, but there is no need for name calling. You might want to brush up your etiquette.
I am not ludicrous because I don't share you opinion!
I can only be incorrect if your opinion is the correct one, and there is no basis of proof for that. We differ in opinion, that's all

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 21:30

ianto wasnt 'cyber deleted' though was he? she just sort of threw him lol
It was clear that Ianto was supposed to be dead. Jack would not have kissed him had he only been unconscious.

If Jack could give life,don`t you think he would have done that?
He would give Ianto a kiss in a heartbeat and he certainly would give his grandson the kiss of life if he knew he could save him.
It is has never been canon that Jack could ressurect people by giving then a kiss of life.
In fact RTD nor JB have said anything about that aswell and I would think that if Jack could they would talk about that.
[spoiler:ehf8aanq]As I mentioned before, both Ianto and Jack were dead for an unspecified period of time. Regardless of how long it was, it was clearly longer than the events of Cyberwoman, or Owen's death. As I said, perhaps, he can only perform resurrections as a kind of 'Super CPR', not a full on 'raising of the dead'. I believe that Cyberwoman is a canon example of Jack resurrecting someone by kissing them and transferring some of his life force to them. If I am wrong about that, then so be it, but I am not going to start questioning my memory of the episode just because other people disagree with me... I'll try and find the clip on YouTube or something, and see if I can confirm or deny things.

As for what Jack would or would not have done with regards to Steven, who knows why RTD wrote the episode the way he did. Who knows why he chose to show Jack as having taken such actions. At the end of the day, I don't think the way Jack was written at all in Torchwood was really consistent to how he was written in Doctor Who (and I can't think of any reason for that other than weak writing)

At the end of the day, I've put my view, people are free to agree or disagree, I'd rather not get drawn into some kind of repetitive argument which could get unnecessarily heated.[/spoiler:ehf8aanq]

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 21:33

[quote="Timeless-II":1usouiuw]I thought Ianto had just been knocked out... ???
Since when are people 'just knocked out' by cyber 'deletion'? It is always shown as fatal?
I agree with Timeless, ElectroxGirl, Laurie and Gysil. Ianto was NOT cyber deleted, he was grabbed by his throat and thrown in the gutter (or whatever that puddle is called).

I can't think of any time Jack brought somebody back to life - correct me if I'm wrong though, as I'd love to know.
As above, Ianto in Cyberwoman. I forget who the other person was in one of the first episodes of season one, but Jack resurrected them by kissing them [/quote:1usouiuw]
I think the person you're talking about in series one is Carys. But she wasn't dead. He didn't bring anyone back to life.
No, Carys was not dead, she was posessed by an energy sucking creature, as I stated above.

[quote=Cayendi]
Even though I'd love for it to be true, for Ianto to have died in Cyberwoman and to have been brought back to life by Jack, there is no actual canon proof that actually happened. We might have interpreted it that way, but for all we know, Ianto was merely unconscious.
Don't be ludicrous. Cyber 'deletion' is always fatal. Ianto was dead, and Ianto revived him by kissing him (it was not a case of mouth to mouth resuscitation) That is a canon fact clearly shown in the episode. For someone to draw any other conclusion from what was shown, then they are incorrect, as what was shown was quite clear.You may not agree with my opinin, but there is no need for name calling. You might want to brush up your etiquette.
I am not ludicrous because I don't share you opinion!
I can only be incorrect if your opinion is the correct one, and there is no basis of proof for that. We differ in opinion, that's all[/quote:1usouiuw]
Excuse me, but I have not called you any names at all. I said not to be ludicrous, in that I felt that that part of your statement, which I boldened, was ludicrous, my apologies if you felt I meant that as a personal attack. I did not.
With regards 'basis of proof', I am currently seeking to find just that to clarify the issue :)

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 21:33

[mod="Timeless-II":2mznvf36]I do love a good debate - and this IS a good debate, but as mentioned above, can we keep it civil ... thanks[/mod:2mznvf36]

EDIT:

...
Excuse me, but I have not called you any names at all. I said not to be ludicrous, in that I felt that that part of your statement, which I boldened, was ludicrous, my apologies if you felt I meant that as a personal attack. I did not.
With regards 'basis of proof', I am currently seeking to find just that to clarify the issue :)

Sorry Captain James Harper, I didn't see your post as I was posting mine.... :good:

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 21:34

[spoiler:ns1zn1xr]As I mentioned before, both Ianto and Jack were dead for an unspecified period of time. Regardless of how long it was, it was clearly longer than the events of Cyberwoman, or Owen's death. As I said, perhaps, he can only perform resurrections as a kind of 'Super CPR', not a full on 'raising of the dead'. I believe that Cyberwoman is a canon example of Jack resurrecting someone by kissing them and transferring some of his life force to them. If I am wrong about that, then so be it, but I am not going to start questioning my memory of the episode just because other people disagree with me... I'll try and find the clip on YouTube or something, and see if I can confirm or deny things.

As for what Jack would or would not have done with regards to Steven, who knows why RTD wrote the episode the way he did. Who knows why he chose to show Jack as having taken such actions. At the end of the day, I don't think the way Jack was written at all in Torchwood was really consistent to how he was written in Doctor Who (and I can't think of any reason for that other than weak writing)

At the end of the day, I've put my view, people are free to agree or disagree, I'd rather not get drawn into some kind of repetitive argument which could get unnecessarily heated.[/spoiler:ns1zn1xr]By your own reasoning, Jack *could* have saved Owen then, since Owen was shot right in front of Jack ... but he didn't.
If Jack had been able to give life, he would NOT have waited for them to get Owen back to the hub, knowing it would be too late to do so.

gisyl

11th July 2009, 21:39

RTD has always said that Jack in Torchwood is darker then in Doctor who,because he could make him darker in torchwood.
That has nothing to do with weak writing but everything to do with the fact that Torchwood is for an adults.

Like others have said before it has never been canon proof that Ianto was death in cyberwoman or that Jack could give a kiss of life.
Seriously, do you really think that if he could he wouldn`t have done that?

Kelly

11th July 2009, 21:41

[spoiler:3jd0b9r7]And as for his feelings of Ianto, I felt that death scene proved it all. Ianto really was just a "part time shag" to Jack after all, as he never told Ianto that he loved him. Besides, Ianto was a manipulator who lied to everyone who worked with and cared for him, so was he really worth caring about after all?[/spoiler:3jd0b9r7]

I'm sorry but how can you justify what you wrote?

[spoiler:3jd0b9r7]Jack was clearly distraught and blaming himself for Ianto dying! Have you ever tried to tell someone you love them, when you know there is no point? What good would it have done for Jack to finally admit that he loved Ianto? He was watching the man he loved, die right in front of him. Jack was heartbroken, you could see that in his face/eyes and could hear it in his voice! He tried everything he could to get the 456 to save Ianto. He was more than just a part time shag... No part time shag could ever have that much impact on someone!

And as for Ianto being a manipulator? He was embarrassed by his family, his background... He came from a Council Estate in the arse end of Cardiff! There are thousands of people out there that have bent the truth in the past and will continue to bend the truth in order to save face! You can't tell me that you've never once bent the truth to make yourself look better in a different light? It's only human to be embarrassed about ones family and life outside work, so does that mean that no one in the human race is worth caring about?[/spoiler:3jd0b9r7]

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 21:44

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 21:46

[spoiler:2cq082qn]Jack was clearly distraught and blaming himself for Ianto dying! Have you ever tried to tell someone you love them, when you know there is no point? What good would it have done for Jack to finally admit that he loved Ianto? He was watching the man he loved, die right in front of him. Jack was heartbroken, you could see that in his face/eyes and could hear it in his voice! He tried everything he could to get the 456 to save Ianto. He was more than just a part time shag... No part time shag could ever have that much impact on someone!

And as for Ianto being a manipulator? He was embarrassed by his family, his background... He came from a Council Estate in the arse end of Cardiff! There are thousands of people out there that have bent the truth in the past and will continue to bend the truth in order to save face! You can't tell me that you've never once bent the truth to make yourself look better in a different light? It's only human to be embarrassed about ones family and life outside work, so does that mean that no one in the human race is worth caring about?[/spoiler:2cq082qn] :yes: :agree: Wonderfully said Kelly!

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 21:54

[mod="Timeless-II":2p5ymaby]I do love a good debate - and this IS a good debate, but as mentioned above, can we keep it civil ... thanks[/mod:2p5ymaby]

EDIT:
[quote="Captain James Harper":2p5ymaby]...
Excuse me, but I have not called you any names at all. I said not to be ludicrous, in that I felt that that part of your statement, which I boldened, was ludicrous, my apologies if you felt I meant that as a personal attack. I did not.
With regards 'basis of proof', I am currently seeking to find just that to clarify the issue :)

Sorry Captain James Harper, I didn't see your post as I was posting mine.... :good:[/quote:2p5ymaby]
Not a problem at all :) :drinks:

By your own reasoning, Jack *could* have saved Owen then, since Owen was shot right in front of Jack ... but he didn't.
If Jack had been able to give life, he would NOT have waited for them to get Owen back to the hub, knowing it would be too late to do so.
That's an interesting point, although, I must point out that the reason for Owen's death (originally going to be Ianto's) was so the writers could explore the idea of someone as hedonistic as Owen having to live with the possibility of an eternity trapped in a body which could no longer enjoy mortal pleasures.

[spoiler:2p5ymaby]RTD has always said that Jack in Torchwood is darker then in Doctor who,because he could make him darker in torchwood.
That has nothing to do with weak writing but everything to do with the fact that Torchwood is for an adults.[/spoiler:2p5ymaby]

Like others have said before it has never been canon proof that Ianto was death in cyberwoman or that Jack could give a kiss of life.
Seriously, do you really think that if he could he wouldn`t have done that?
Darker, yes, but in Torchwood, Jack behaves in ways which are at odds with how he behaved while travelling with the Doctor, that is not a case of a different style of writing, but weak writing (something RTD is notorious for). Look at his comment about oestrogen in the rain, in the pilot episode. He'd been on the planet over a century at that point, it was a totally unnecessarily weird comment. Why write a time-traveller only ever wearing the same clothes? RTD thought it lame that Jack wore 'period consistent' clothes while travelling with the Doctor, so decided to go with the idea of the vintage affectations. To be honest, I would have thought that someone taking the time to wear clothes that blended into their host time period as being a smart idea, not lame :D

With regards the scene in Cyberwoman, I've found a rather edited clip on YouTube, and while I will concede that Ianto was not 'cyber deleted', and was simply thrown, it is impossible for anyone to mistake the kiss that Jack gives him as being anything other than a kiss, and not medical assistance/mouth to mouth. I would be very interested to see the scene completely as broadcast to further confirm or deny my thoughts.

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 21:57

I think we gave it the title a resusi-snog.
But then, I nearly drowned once.... I was revived. Doesn't mean I actually died though. I was knocked out under water, and caught in time..... much to everyones' regret :wink:

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 22:02

It was clear that Ianto was supposed to be dead. Jack would not have kissed him had he only been unconscious.So you think the only reason Jack kissed Ianto in Cyberwoman was because he was dead, so he could bring him back to life?
If that is the case, I'd like to know why you think there would be no reason for Jack to kiss Ianto if he was merely unconscious.

On the time issue ...
[spoiler:3liri4kr]If, and I really mean if, time is a factor in Jack's alledged gift of life, why did Jack kissing Ianto right after he died in day four, not result in Ianto coming back to life??[/spoiler:3liri4kr]
I'm not going to continue to address the first point, as I think I have done so in my previous post, although I would say that it would be rather unusual to kiss someone whom one is not in a relationhip with while they were unconscious simply out of lust...

With regards the second point... Into the spoilers :D

[spoiler:3liri4kr]Maybe Jack knew that he was himself going to die from exposure to the toxin, and would only resurrect once that danger to his life was removed, so he might have felt that even if he did save Ianto's life at that precise point, there was no way of knowing how soon they would both be in 'fresh air' again, so saving Ianto then, only to then succumb to the toxin himself, would have meant forcing Ianto to die from the toxin a second time, with Jack knowing he would be unable to revive Ianto a second time, as he could still have been dead... Of course, that is only my own opinion on the subject...

Regardless of any debate over Jack's ability to resurrect the dead, Ianto was proven to be a liar and a manipulator, so I won't be missing him as a character.[/spoiler:3liri4kr]

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 22:07

By your own reasoning, Jack *could* have saved Owen then, since Owen was shot right in front of Jack ... but he didn't.
If Jack had been able to give life, he would NOT have waited for them to get Owen back to the hub, knowing it would be too late to do so.
That's an interesting point, although, I must point out that the reason for Owen's death (originally going to be Ianto's) was so the writers could explore the idea of someone as hedonistic as Owen having to live with the possibility of an eternity trapped in a body which could no longer enjoy mortal pleasures.
I find it interesting that you point a finger to the writers every time we mention something that might disprove your idea of Jack being able to give life.
It brings me to another interesting question, though. If you truly do not like Ianto and think his death was deserved, why do you try so hard to prove Jack kissed him back to life? After all, even in Cyberwoman, Ianto had betrayed Jack, had lied to him, deceived him. Surely, based on your words, Owen and Tosh would have been far more worthy

With regards the scene in Cyberwoman, I've found a rather edited clip on YouTube, and while I will concede that Ianto was not 'cyber deleted', and was simply thrown, it is impossible for anyone to mistake the kiss that Jack gives him as being anything other than a kiss, and not medical assistance/mouth to mouth. I would be very interested to see the scene completely as broadcast to further confirm or deny my thoughts.
None of us were contending that fact. We *know* Jack kissed Ianto.

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 22:09

[spoiler:2w679fst]And as for his feelings of Ianto, I felt that death scene proved it all. Ianto really was just a "part time shag" to Jack after all, as he never told Ianto that he loved him. Besides, Ianto was a manipulator who lied to everyone who worked with and cared for him, so was he really worth caring about after all?[/spoiler:2w679fst]

I'm sorry but how can you justify what you wrote?

[spoiler:2w679fst]Jack was clearly distraught and blaming himself for Ianto dying! Have you ever tried to tell someone you love them, when you know there is no point? What good would it have done for Jack to finally admit that he loved Ianto? He was watching the man he loved, die right in front of him. Jack was heartbroken, you could see that in his face/eyes and could hear it in his voice! He tried everything he could to get the 456 to save Ianto. He was more than just a part time shag... No part time shag could ever have that much impact on someone!

And as for Ianto being a manipulator? He was embarrassed by his family, his background... He came from a Council Estate in the arse end of Cardiff! There are thousands of people out there that have bent the truth in the past and will continue to bend the truth in order to save face! You can't tell me that you've never once bent the truth to make yourself look better in a different light? It's only human to be embarrassed about ones family and life outside work, so does that mean that no one in the human race is worth caring about?[/spoiler:2w679fst]

[spoiler:2w679fst]I can justify it quite easily, by what was being shown as canon in the episode, and what I personally have or have not done, is irrelevent to what was clearly shown in the episode. I am not saying that Jack did not have feelings for, or not care for Ianto at all, that much is evident from previous episodes, but, I do not think that he was ever actually 'in love' with Ianto, as much as Ianto was in love with him.

I don't think anyone could say that they have never bent the truth to make themself look better, but, and I can only speak for myself here, but I have never lied to a partner about myself or my background for such a reason. The whole point for what Ianto's sister said to Gwen, was to show that Ianto had lied to everyone (including the audience), so that then made everything he had said potentially suspect.[/spoiler:2w679fst]

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 22:11

There was also that little matter of hiding a cyberwoman in the basement... :wink:

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 22:15

I find it interesting that you point a finger to the writers every time we mention something that might disprove your idea of Jack being able to give life.
I am not 'pointing a finger', but merely repeating something which has previously been stated by the writers about why it was Owen who was killed, and not Ianto, and that has absolutely nothing about the idea of Jack being able to resurrect anyone, but a specific example of 'plot necessity' for a character death.

It brings me to another interesting question, though. If you truly do not like Ianto and think his death was deserved, why do you try so hard to prove Jack kissed him back to life?
The point I was trying to make (which I have already conceded, so please have the good grace to let it drop) had nothing to do with Ianto as a person, but was intended as a canon example (now potentially disproven) of a displayed ability.

After all, even in Cyberwoman, Ianto had betrayed Jack, had lied to him, deceived him. Surely, based on your words, Owen and Tosh would have been far more worthy

I quite agree, but at the end of the day, I'm not on the Torchwood writing staff, so it's not as if I can do anything about that.

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 22:16

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 22:18

[quote="Timeless-II":30vcvqfo]There was also that little matter of hiding a cyberwoman in the basement... :wink:
Given how Ianto was shown to have tracked Jack down, and made all those attempts to ingratiate himself with him, it makes me wonder if his only intention then, was to gain access to Torchwood facilities to be able to help Lisa...[/quote:30vcvqfo]

There's been mention of that. I'm open minded about it, but do tend to lean towards that theory. But I also believe that Ianto was quite passionate about his job too.

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 22:21

It brings me to another interesting question, though. If you truly do not like Ianto and think his death was deserved, why do you try so hard to prove Jack kissed him back to life?
The point I was trying to make (which I have already conceded, so please have the good grace to let it drop) had nothing to do with Ianto as a person, but was intended as a canon example (now potentially disproven) of a displayed ability.I didn't mean to overlap, but apparently I was working in two different tabs without noticing.

Magicfire

11th July 2009, 22:28

[spoiler:29mkcoyz]And as for his feelings of Ianto, I felt that death scene proved it all. Ianto really was just a "part time shag" to Jack after all, as he never told Ianto that he loved him. Besides, Ianto was a manipulator who lied to everyone who worked with and cared for him, so was he really worth caring about after all?[/spoiler:29mkcoyz]

I'm sorry but how can you justify what you wrote?

[spoiler:29mkcoyz]Jack was clearly distraught and blaming himself for Ianto dying! Have you ever tried to tell someone you love them, when you know there is no point? What good would it have done for Jack to finally admit that he loved Ianto? He was watching the man he loved, die right in front of him. Jack was heartbroken, you could see that in his face/eyes and could hear it in his voice! He tried everything he could to get the 456 to save Ianto. He was more than just a part time shag... No part time shag could ever have that much impact on someone!

And as for Ianto being a manipulator? He was embarrassed by his family, his background... He came from a Council Estate in the arse end of Cardiff! There are thousands of people out there that have bent the truth in the past and will continue to bend the truth in order to save face! You can't tell me that you've never once bent the truth to make yourself look better in a different light? It's only human to be embarrassed about ones family and life outside work, so does that mean that no one in the human race is worth caring about?[/spoiler:29mkcoyz]

Thanks for that Kelly, well said.

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 22:31

There was also that little matter of hiding a cyberwoman in the basement... :wink:
Given how Ianto was shown to have tracked Jack down, and made all those attempts to ingratiate himself with him, it makes me wonder if his only intention then, was to gain access to Torchwood facilities to be able to help Lisa...[/quote:zcz6xkwu]

There's been mention of that. I'm open minded about it, but do tend to lean towards that theory. But I also believe that Ianto was quite passionate about his job too.[/quote:zcz6xkwu]
Perhaps he felt he might having a hard time getting another job with his shop-lifting conviction :D I know it's possible that Ianto initially only wanted to work with Jack out of some kind of attraction that lead to more, [spoiler:zcz6xkwu]what his sister said to Gwen, makes me question his capacity to be honest at all, so makes me suspicious of everything he said or did.[/spoiler:zcz6xkwu] Maybe he kept a diary so as to be able to keep a track on what lies he had told :D

[quote=Captain James Harper][quote=Cayendi]
It brings me to another interesting question, though. If you truly do not like Ianto and think his death was deserved, why do you try so hard to prove Jack kissed him back to life?
The point I was trying to make (which I have already conceded, so please have the good grace to let it drop) had nothing to do with Ianto as a person, but was intended as a canon example (now potentially disproven) of a displayed ability.I didn't mean to overlap, but apparently I was working in two different tabs without noticing.
No problem :)

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 22:35

Maybe Ianto's underhandedness (my word) was what Jack liked, as each had deep secrets, and so felt safe in the knowledge neither would tell.... as well as Ianto's coffee skills...

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 22:36

[quote="Captain James Harper":3lz19bui][quote="Timeless-II":3lz19bui]There was also that little matter of hiding a cyberwoman in the basement... :wink:
Given how Ianto was shown to have tracked Jack down, and made all those attempts to ingratiate himself with him, it makes me wonder if his only intention then, was to gain access to Torchwood facilities to be able to help Lisa...[/quote:3lz19bui]

There's been mention of that. I'm open minded about it, but do tend to lean towards that theory. But I also believe that Ianto was quite passionate about his job too.[/quote:3lz19bui]
I agree on both accounts.
[spoiler:3lz19bui]I believe that if Ianto had another agenda besides helping Lisa, it would surely have surfaced before him dying[/spoiler:3lz19bui]

and then a light went off in my head ...
[spoiler:3lz19bui]Something about Ianto lying about his father just came to mind.
Debenhams is mostly a clothing shop, right? Anyway, if not, there is no reason to believe Ianto's father didn't work in the clothing department, so he still might have been able to measure a man's inside seam by the stride across the threshold. (aka the family eye)
Yes, Ianto lied about his father's occupation, and it might mean he lied about more, but what if he just lied about the master tailor part?
That could be why Jack raised an eyebrow at hearing Ianto mention it in the wedding episode. Ianto said 'as you know', yet Jack looked sort of baffled. What if Ianto had told Jack the truth, (he did say 'I tell you everything' in Children of Earth) but, tended to fall back on that lie?
I know that when someone is that used to lying about something like that, they have trouble distinguishing the truth from the lie and might slip up again.[/spoiler:3lz19bui]

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 22:43

[spoiler:2egd0xig]I believe that if Ianto had another agenda besides helping Lisa, it would surely have surfaced before him dying[/spoiler:2egd0xig]

[spoiler:2egd0xig]I believe that Ianto's agenda was helping Lisa. It was a vision of Lisa that tried to convince him to open the rift, not a vision of Jack...[/spoiler:2egd0xig]

[spoiler:2egd0xig]Something about Ianto lying about his father just came to mind.
Debenhams is mostly a clothing shop, right? Anyway, if not, there is no reason to believe Ianto's father didn't work in the clothing department, so he still might have been able to measure a man's inside seam by the stride across the threshold. (aka the family eye)
Yes, Ianto lied about his father's occupation, and it might mean he lied about more, but what if he just lied about the master tailor part?
That could be why Jack raised an eyebrow at hearing Ianto mention it in the wedding episode. Ianto said 'as you know', yet Jack looked sort of baffled. What if Ianto had told Jack the truth, (he did say 'I tell you everything' in Children of Earth) but, tended to fall back on that lie?
I know that when someone is that used to lying about something like that, they have trouble distinguishing the truth from the lie and might slip up again.[/spoiler:2egd0xig]

[spoiler:2egd0xig]Indeed, Debenhams is mostly a clothing shop, but, what Ianto said, did sound like his father was a master tailor with his own premises, ie Saville Row style. Maybe it was just an exaggeration of the truth, rather than an outright lie, but it still fits in with the pattern of behaviour of a dishonest and manipulative person.[/spoiler:2egd0xig]

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 22:47

Maybe Ianto's underhandedness (my word) was what Jack liked, as each had deep secrets, and so felt safe in the knowledge neither would tell.... as well as Ianto's coffee skills...
Interesting idea... I think the two are slightly different though, in there's a difference between keeping secret information which others would only find harmful, and actually telling falsehoods... [spoiler:210wo9rq]If I recall, and I may be wrong, but I believe his sister's actual words were "You [including us, the audience] didn't know him at all"[/spoiler:210wo9rq]

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 22:49

[quote="Timeless-II":187k59d1]Maybe Ianto's underhandedness (my word) was what Jack liked, as each had deep secrets, and so felt safe in the knowledge neither would tell.... as well as Ianto's coffee skills...
Interesting idea... I think the two are slightly different though, in there's a difference between keeping secret information which others would only find harmful, and actually telling falsehoods... [spoiler:187k59d1]If I recall, and I may be wrong, but I believe his sister's actual words were "You [including us, the audience] didn't know him at all"[/spoiler:187k59d1][/quote:187k59d1]

But how much DON'T we know, eh? :D
Cyberwomen under the noses of fellow Hubanians... so what else could Ianto hide.

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 22:51

[spoiler:1xpjoov0]I believe that if Ianto had another agenda besides helping Lisa, it would surely have surfaced before him dying[/spoiler:1xpjoov0]
[spoiler:1xpjoov0]I believe that Ianto's agenda was helping Lisa. It was a vision of Lisa that tried to convince him to open the rift, not a vision of Jack...[/spoiler:1xpjoov0]Err ... *is confuzzled*
Yes, I know that. I thought you had doubts about helping Lisa being his only goal? That was what I replied to.
Did I misinterpret that?

[spoiler:1xpjoov0]Something about Ianto lying about his father just came to mind.
Debenhams is mostly a clothing shop, right? Anyway, if not, there is no reason to believe Ianto's father didn't work in the clothing department, so he still might have been able to measure a man's inside seam by the stride across the threshold. (aka the family eye)
Yes, Ianto lied about his father's occupation, and it might mean he lied about more, but what if he just lied about the master tailor part?
That could be why Jack raised an eyebrow at hearing Ianto mention it in the wedding episode. Ianto said 'as you know', yet Jack looked sort of baffled. What if Ianto had told Jack the truth, (he did say 'I tell you everything' in Children of Earth) but, tended to fall back on that lie?
I know that when someone is that used to lying about something like that, they have trouble distinguishing the truth from the lie and might slip up again.[/spoiler:1xpjoov0]

[spoiler:1xpjoov0]Indeed, Debenhams is mostly a clothing shop, but, what Ianto said, did sound like his father was a master tailor with his own premises, ie Saville Row style. Maybe it was just an exaggeration of the truth, rather than an outright lie, but it still fits in with the pattern of behaviour of a dishonest and manipulative person.[/spoiler:1xpjoov0]
[spoiler:1xpjoov0]It also perfectly fits the pattern of behaviour of someone ashamed of his background[/spoiler:1xpjoov0]

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 22:58

[spoiler:108txzof]If I recall, and I may be wrong, but I believe his sister's actual words were "You [including us, the audience] didn't know him at all"[/spoiler:108txzof]
[spoiler:108txzof]The complete quote, after Rhiannon asks Gwen what Ianto told her about his dad, and Gwen answers that he told her he was a master tailor, is: 'if Ianto gave you that old shit, you didn't know him at all.'[/spoiler:108txzof]

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 22:59

[spoiler:29u46c8m]I believe that if Ianto had another agenda besides helping Lisa, it would surely have surfaced before him dying[/spoiler:29u46c8m]
[spoiler:29u46c8m]I believe that Ianto's agenda was helping Lisa. It was a vision of Lisa that tried to convince him to open the rift, not a vision of Jack...[/spoiler:29u46c8m]Err ... *is confuzzled*
Yes, I know that. I thought you had doubts about helping Lisa being his only goal? That was what I replied to.
Did I misinterpret that?
No, I didn't have any doubt about helping Lisa being his goal, but Jack most likely thought that Ianto actually wanted to work with/for him/was attracted to him (without any other ulterior motive). That's what I felt was the dishonesty.

[spoiler:29u46c8m]It also perfectly fits the pattern of behaviour of someone ashamed of his background[/spoiler:29u46c8m]
[spoiler:29u46c8m]True, but, as before, while it might be the sort of thing someone might tell their colleagues, it's not the kind of thing someone would tell a partner, if they were an honest person. As above, I believe the comment was "You didn't know him at all." I think that was a very telling statement which summed Ianto up perfectly.[/spoiler:29u46c8m]

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 23:00

[spoiler:11ty1lp6]If I recall, and I may be wrong, but I believe his sister's actual words were "You [including us, the audience] didn't know him at all"[/spoiler:11ty1lp6]
[spoiler:11ty1lp6]The complete quote, after Rhiannon asks Gwen what Ianto told her about his dad, and Gwen answers that he told her he was a master tailor, is: 'if Ianto gave you that old shit, you didn't know him at all.'[/spoiler:11ty1lp6]
[spoiler:11ty1lp6]That was it, and indeed, that was what he told them and us, as the audience, meaning that neither they, nor we, knew him at all.[/spoiler:11ty1lp6]

nightowl

11th July 2009, 23:08

Wow. I've been saying that a lot the last week, but Captain Harper your leaps of logics astound me.

And not a in a good way....

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 23:11

Wow. I've been saying that a lot the last week, but Captain Harper your leaps of logics astound me.

And not a in a good way....

Would you like to contribute to the discussion by expanding on that, or is this just a drive-by posting?
If you wish to be accurate, it was my recollection of an episode which was at fault, not my logic...

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 23:13

Wow. I've been saying that a lot the last week, but Captain Harper your leaps of logics astound me.

And not a in a good way....

Was there really any need for that? Or did you have something specific in mind?
:drinks:

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 23:14

[spoiler:10ww9o5v]The complete quote, after Rhiannon asks Gwen what Ianto told her about his dad, and Gwen answers that he told her he was a master tailor, is: 'if Ianto gave you that old shit, you didn't know him at all.'[/spoiler:10ww9o5v]
[spoiler:10ww9o5v]That was it, and indeed, that was what he told them and us, as the audience, meaning that neither they, nor we, knew him at all.[/spoiler:10ww9o5v]
[spoiler:10ww9o5v]She never, however, refuted Ianto telling them about her and the kids, he obviously never lied about that. Which, to me, means he *only* lied about his dad, because he was ashamed of him working at Debenhams.
As stated before, I think Jack *does* know the truth, but let Ianto get away with pretending his father was a master tailor. I don't think it means Ianto lied about everything else, especially to Jack, after Cyberwoman.[/spoiler:10ww9o5v]

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 23:21

[quote=Cayendi]
[spoiler:ee4igra4]I believe that if Ianto had another agenda besides helping Lisa, it would surely have surfaced before him dying[/spoiler:ee4igra4]
[spoiler:ee4igra4]I believe that Ianto's agenda was helping Lisa. It was a vision of Lisa that tried to convince him to open the rift, not a vision of Jack...[/spoiler:ee4igra4]Err ... *is confuzzled*
Yes, I know that. I thought you had doubts about helping Lisa being his only goal? That was what I replied to.
Did I misinterpret that?
No, I didn't have any doubt about helping Lisa being his goal, but Jack most likely thought that Ianto actually wanted to work with/for him/was attracted to him (without any other ulterior motive). That's what I felt was the dishonesty.[/quote:ee4igra4]Err ... confuzzled even more
you wrote:
Given how Ianto was shown to have tracked Jack down, and made all those attempts to ingratiate himself with him, it makes me wonder if his only intention then, was to gain access to Torchwood facilities to be able to help Lisa...
This came across to me as you wondering about Ianto's intention, not Jack, hence my confusion ...

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 23:42

[spoiler:3i7r1lgf]The complete quote, after Rhiannon asks Gwen what Ianto told her about his dad, and Gwen answers that he told her he was a master tailor, is: 'if Ianto gave you that old shit, you didn't know him at all.'[/spoiler:3i7r1lgf]
[spoiler:3i7r1lgf]That was it, and indeed, that was what he told them and us, as the audience, meaning that neither they, nor we, knew him at all.[/spoiler:3i7r1lgf]
[spoiler:3i7r1lgf]She never, however, refuted Ianto telling them about her and the kids, he obviously never lied about that. Which, to me, means he *only* lied about his dad, because he was ashamed of him working at Debenhams.
As stated before, I think Jack *does* know the truth, but let Ianto get away with pretending his father was a master tailor. I don't think it means Ianto lied about everything else, especially to Jack, after Cyberwoman.[/spoiler:3i7r1lgf]
[spoiler:3i7r1lgf]To be honest, I think that was just written in so that the audience would think that Ianto had actually mentioned his family before (which I can't actually remember him doing, other than the reference about his dad being a master tailor... Can you think of any other references I might have missed?)[/spoiler:3i7r1lgf]

[quote=Cayendi]
[spoiler:3i7r1lgf]I believe that if Ianto had another agenda besides helping Lisa, it would surely have surfaced before him dying[/spoiler:3i7r1lgf]
[spoiler:3i7r1lgf]I believe that Ianto's agenda was helping Lisa. It was a vision of Lisa that tried to convince him to open the rift, not a vision of Jack...[/spoiler:3i7r1lgf]Err ... *is confuzzled*
Yes, I know that. I thought you had doubts about helping Lisa being his only goal? That was what I replied to.
Did I misinterpret that?
No, I didn't have any doubt about helping Lisa being his goal, but Jack most likely thought that Ianto actually wanted to work with/for him/was attracted to him (without any other ulterior motive). That's what I felt was the dishonesty.Err ... confuzzled even more
you wrote:
Given how Ianto was shown to have tracked Jack down, and made all those attempts to ingratiate himself with him, it makes me wonder if his only intention then, was to gain access to Torchwood facilities to be able to help Lisa...
This came across to me as you wondering about Ianto's intention, not Jack, hence my confusion ...[/quote:3i7r1lgf]
I think the episode was trying to put forward the idea that Ianto only went to work for Torchwood 3 because he had a mancrush on Jack, but the way it came across to me [spoiler:3i7r1lgf](and the statement from his sister reinforcing that)[/spoiler:3i7r1lgf] was that he only tried to get closer to Jack so as to be able to help Lisa. As before, Ianto saw a vision of Lisa, not Jack)

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 23:42

I'm suddenly temtped to ask where everyone has gone ...
Anyway, it's been lovely
I've never participated in a discussion as much as tonight (while hubby was still dutifully packing the bus ... I should be ashamed ... but strangely, I'm not)

It always amazes me how differently we all read what's shown in episodes sometimes.
It makes me wonder why some teachers keep claiming their interpretation of a poem is the *only* way of interpreting said poem. Our discussion tonight only proves to me that that is impossible.

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 23:46

...

It always amazes me how differently we all read what's shown in episodes sometimes.
It makes me wonder why some teachers keep claiming their interpretation of a poem is the *only* way of interpreting said poem. Our discussion tonight only proves to me that that is impossible.

Here-here. Seeing other's opinions can open our own eyes to things we miss - won't always change our view, but it certainly adds a few extra colours.
:drinks:

Captain James Harper

11th July 2009, 23:55

Timeless-II

11th July 2009, 23:57

[quote=Cayendi]...

It always amazes me how differently we all read what's shown in episodes sometimes.
It makes me wonder why some teachers keep claiming their interpretation of a poem is the *only* way of interpreting said poem. Our discussion tonight only proves to me that that is impossible.

Here-here. Seeing other's opinions can open our own eyes to things we miss - won't always change our view, but it certainly adds a few extra colours.
:drinks:
Absolutely so :drinks:[/quote:2g8jyrn8]

And we live to spar another day... :lol:

* laurie *

11th July 2009, 23:58

i agree with both of you i love a good discussion on things, its why i love it here and i always love discussing my favorite shows, i was enjoying saying my little bit at the start but food beckoned me :laugh:

Cayendi

11th July 2009, 23:59

and we overlapped ... again :)

[spoiler:31aowzn6]She never, however, refuted Ianto telling them about her and the kids, he obviously never lied about that. Which, to me, means he *only* lied about his dad, because he was ashamed of him working at Debenhams.
As stated before, I think Jack *does* know the truth, but let Ianto get away with pretending his father was a master tailor. I don't think it means Ianto lied about everything else, especially to Jack, after Cyberwoman.[/spoiler:31aowzn6]
[spoiler:31aowzn6]To be honest, I think that was just written in so that the audience would think that Ianto had actually mentioned his family before (which I can't actually remember him doing, other than the reference about his dad being a master tailor... Can you think of any other references I might have missed?)[/spoiler:31aowzn6]
Honestly, in every episode something is bound to come up that has never been mentioned before, but is played as if the team (or at least some of them) knew about it. I don't think this instance was any different.
[spoiler:31aowzn6]Something not being mentioned on screen before, doesn't mean it never happened/existe.
Ianto never told Jack about his sister (and I don't count Jack being able to hear Ianto's conversation, because I don't think he even mentions names), yet, Jack obviously knew about them. That means that Ianto must have told Jack at some point, off screen.[/spoiler:31aowzn6]

I think the episode was trying to put forward the idea that Ianto only went to work for Torchwood 3 because he had a mancrush on Jack, but the way it came across to me [spoiler:31aowzn6](and the statement from his sister reinforcing that)[/spoiler:31aowzn6] was that he only tried to get closer to Jack so as to be able to help Lisa. As before, Ianto saw a vision of Lisa, not Jack)
No, I don't think that was the intention, at all. It was exactly the way it came across to you, the seduction part was all for Lisa ... only ... Ianto never counted on falling in is own trap

Captain James Harper

12th July 2009, 00:25

And we live to spar another day... :lol:
Absolutely :D

i agree with both of you i love a good discussion on things, its why i love it here and i always love discussing my favorite shows, i was enjoying saying my little bit at the start but food beckoned me :laugh:
Never mind, I'm sure there'll be other debates in the future :lol:

and we overlapped ... again :)
Honestly, in every episode something is bound to come up that has never been mentioned before, but is played as if the team (or at least some of them) knew about it. I don't think this instance was any different.
[spoiler:3jray1if]Something not being mentioned on screen before, doesn't mean it never happened/existe.
Ianto never told Jack about his sister (and I don't count Jack being able to hear Ianto's conversation, because I don't think he even mentions names), yet, Jack obviously knew about them. That means that Ianto must have told Jack at some point, off screen.[/spoiler:3jray1if]
[spoiler:3jray1if]Oh I quite agree, there will always be something new to learn, I think the problem with them being introduced to us, the audience) in Children of Earth, was that it came across (to me at least) that they were only being introduced as plot elements for that particular story so as to have some 'easy access' to a family with kids and some kind of personal connection to the team. It came across more as being done for plot convenience, rather than legitimate character development, if that makes any sense? For example, during the Doctor Who/Torchwood/Sarah Jane Adventures crossover episode, when Ianto was watching Paul O'Grady during the crisis, had he said something like "My niece loves this show..." then that would have been character development, compared to how things were handled in Children of Earth... It was also interesting (for other reasons) to say that Jack had a child, as in other mediums like Highlander, Buffy, Blade, etc, 'Immortal Creatures' are usually shown to be unable to have children. From photos that Jack looked at in previous episodes, it's clear that he's had several families during his century on Earth, yet there had been no mention at all of any children, so given the revelation in Children of Earth that he could actually have a child, how many other potential Harkness children might there be? and it's a shame that it's taken this long for them to have become known. Surely when Jack spent a year chained up aboard the Valiant, he would have thought of his daughter and grandson more than Ianto...[/spoiler:3jray1if]

No, I don't think that was the intention, at all. It was exactly the way it came across to you, the seduction part was all for Lisa ... only ... Ianto never counted on falling in is own trap
That's an interesting perspective, although, looking at it from the point of view that the seduction was all for Lisa, it only serves to reinforce that Ianto was a manipulative individual...

nightowl

12th July 2009, 00:43

Sorry Timey and Captain Harper, that was a reactionary statement.

Perhaps I need to put it into words why I said that -

I was responding to the belief that Jack has the ability to resurrect more than himself. It just didn't make sense to me.

Ianto as a manipulator - absolutely. It's what got him into TW3 and provided the pathway towards saving the woman he loved. When he lost her, all he had was his job and Jack.

Jack, like he had for the others, helped Ianto put the pieces back together again. With Owen, it was after his fiance died. With Tosh, when she sacrificed her career to save her mother and was looking at spending the rest of her life in jail. With Ianto, it was finding a purpose again in life. That purpose ended up being Jack and TW.

FWIW, Jack probably knew about Ianto's family as I believe they're listed in the Archives. And as he said in the episode, he's told everything to Jack.

Timeless-II

12th July 2009, 00:45

No probs nightowl - and thanks for taking time to pop back and explain... :hugs:

Cayendi

12th July 2009, 00:53

[spoiler:3oo2jjk7]It was also interesting (for other reasons) to say that Jack had a child, as in other mediums like Highlander, Buffy, Blade, etc, 'Immortal Creatures' are usually shown to be unable to have children. From photos that Jack looked at in previous episodes, it's clear that he's had several families during his century on Earth, yet there had been no mention at all of any children, so given the revelation in Children of Earth that he could actually have a child, how many other potential Harkness children might there be? and it's a shame that it's taken this long for them to have become known. Surely when Jack spent a year chained up aboard the Valiant, he would have thought of his daughter and grandson more than Ianto...[/spoiler:3oo2jjk7]
You know, I've been thinking about that immortality thing.
[spoiler:3oo2jjk7]According to the Doctor, Jack is a fixed point in space and time.
The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling that he meant that literally to mean that Jack isn't an immortal living forever, it's just that his body is caught in its own personal 'groundhog day', while the world around him moves on. (and for this I'm basing this on the premises that he doesn't age, though, personally, I feel he does age, only at a much, much, slower rate ... like he's stuck in a time dilation field)
That means, Jack's body is still the body at the time Rose brought him back to life, and seen in that light, I have no problem with him being fertile and able to have children.
I'm having it a bit of a problem explaining my theory, since I've only started to think about this for the past week, after hearing the fixed point in time comment again. But for some reason my mind refuses to see 'fixed point in space and time' as the same thing as being immortal.[/spoiler:3oo2jjk7]

nightowl

12th July 2009, 01:11

[spoiler:249ikx63]Interesting theory - and he has mentioned that he is aging slightly - when he returned with the Doctor the last time there was talk and as he mentioned to his daughter, he did get a grey hair. :grin:[/spoiler:249ikx63]

Captain James Harper

12th July 2009, 01:20

[spoiler:2323fmgh]It was also interesting (for other reasons) to say that Jack had a child, as in other mediums like Highlander, Buffy, Blade, etc, 'Immortal Creatures' are usually shown to be unable to have children. From photos that Jack looked at in previous episodes, it's clear that he's had several families during his century on Earth, yet there had been no mention at all of any children, so given the revelation in Children of Earth that he could actually have a child, how many other potential Harkness children might there be? and it's a shame that it's taken this long for them to have become known. Surely when Jack spent a year chained up aboard the Valiant, he would have thought of his daughter and grandson more than Ianto...[/spoiler:2323fmgh]
You know, I've been thinking about that immortality thing.
[spoiler:2323fmgh]According to the Doctor, Jack is a fixed point in space and time.
The more I think about it, the more I get the feeling that he meant that literally to mean that Jack isn't an immortal living forever, it's just that his body is caught in its own personal 'groundhog day', while the world around him moves on. (and for this I'm basing this on the premises that he doesn't age, though, personally, I feel he does age, only at a much, much, slower rate ... like he's stuck in a time dilation field)
That means, Jack's body is still the body at the time Rose brought him back to life, and seen in that light, I have no problem with him being fertile and able to have children.
I'm having it a bit of a problem explaining my theory, since I've only started to think about this for the past week, after hearing the fixed point in time comment again. But for some reason my mind refuses to see 'fixed point in space and time' as the same thing as being immortal.[/spoiler:2323fmgh]
That theory certainly makes sense, after all, Jack has said that he has found grey hairs, so I can see the idea that you're meaning. The thing which doesn't make sense about that is, if Jack is indeed a fixed point in time and space (which has been confirmed) how can he age at all, when that would effectively change that fixed point, making it 'un-fixed' for want of a better term... In a way, it's a shame that his immortality has never actually been addressed or quantified, as sometimes things which should have mortal effects will affect him, at other times (and this is mostly a case of what is plot relevant, rather than consistent to previous examples) something which should cause a mortal wound will not (like when the Torchwood girls decided to fix electrodes to his chest (I rather liked Alice, I wish they'd done more episodes featuring her somehow)) I'm sure I read somewhere that Jack's immortality would only come into play to revive him from mortal wounds, but do nothing for more mundane injuries like a cut lip or bruising, so that's what gets frustrating when he will do something like recover being speared through the chest by a sword-arm (the episode with the sleeper agents) without actually dying first... From watching Children of Earth, I'm estimating that it took between 8-12 hours [spoiler:2323fmgh]for him to fully regenerate his entire body,[/spoiler:2323fmgh] yet in End of Days, it took him several days (I think more than three, was mentioned) to simply 'recharge'...

Captain James Harper

12th July 2009, 01:22

Timeless-II

12th July 2009, 07:55

I would like to thank all who have taken part in this 'debate' so far, for an excellent discussion, and for your thoroughly decent behaviour in what could have turned into something quite heated and nasty :wink:

This just goes to prove that we can disagree with style... :lol:

And as the title says - People have faith, and in you I do.

Let the debating continue...

PterodactylJo

13th July 2009, 01:33

[spoiler:omgwp79b]Wait... Jack has the ability to bring people back to life? When did this happen!?[/spoiler:omgwp79b]

SerenityChaos

13th July 2009, 03:32

[spoiler:18zbkfnn]Wait... Jack has the ability to bring people back to life? When did this happen!?[/spoiler:18zbkfnn]

[spoiler:18zbkfnn]I think they're referring to Cyberwoman when Jack "kissed" Ianto breathing life into him after he was knocked out.[/spoiler:18zbkfnn]

Did that ever have to be in spoiler tags? lol

Timeless-II

13th July 2009, 04:02

[spoiler:3882yphf]Wait... Jack has the ability to bring people back to life? When did this happen!?[/spoiler:3882yphf]

[spoiler:3882yphf]I think they're referring to Cyberwoman when Jack "kissed" Ianto breathing life into him after he was knocked out.[/spoiler:3882yphf]

Did that ever have to be in spoiler tags? lol
[spoiler:3882yphf]No... :D[/spoiler:3882yphf]

midwife_sh

13th July 2009, 04:58

New to the forum and reading prior posts.
I would like to thank you all for a thoroughly enjoyable debate!

nightowl

13th July 2009, 13:14

<waggles a wingtip at Susan> hey, you made it!

midwife_sh

13th July 2009, 15:45

<waggles a wingtip at Susan> hey, you made it!

Indeed I did!!! :scenic:
I am gonna love it here!

jasemine61

30th July 2009, 18:24

So many questions about Ianto and so little answers. Are we ever going to know the whole truth?Would it be worth buying the archgives book if all this information on Iamto is there? Is it there? Anyone knows? And lordy,lordy why do we care sooooo much. :stop: Im so full of questions...specially about the very artistics banners...if you have one,how do you put one in your post reply?

Meef

30th July 2009, 18:31

I will support this show until the end!

cwebster

30th July 2009, 19:41

[spoiler:1z2hzcj4]yet in End of Days, it took him several days (I think more than three, was mentioned) to simply 'recharge'...[/spoiler:1z2hzcj4]

Well, Abbadon WAS a God. I'm sure being killed by having your life-force drained by a deity would take some time to recover from.

jasemine61

7th August 2009, 02:56

I have to say,I went and watched cyberwoman again,I believe Ianto was thrown so hard that he was killed,I mean,Jack could seen he was just unconcious,why then give him such a long kiss? I think he brought him back to life,Ianto gasped,sort of like Jack does when he comes back to life.

jasemine61

7th August 2009, 02:57

I think I posted this in the wrong place...sorry

blaid drwg

7th August 2009, 07:29

[spoiler:tz0d7bzj]With RTD stating quite clearly that series four has already been written and on the way we can all look forward to another fantastic season with some fantasic new faces (and hopefully some old ones)

True fans will watch and KEEP WATCHING!!!!!![/spoiler:tz0d7bzj]

[mod="Mardave Mad":tz0d7bzj]Please do not use capitals for thread titles. It's classed as shouting as is against the forum rules.[/mod:tz0d7bzj]
I havnt been able to go though all the posts to check if this was pointed out and also I may have missed an interview but I was in the room when Russell stated that he is ready to write series 4 there are ideas there but it has not been written.

Also just your last point about true fans if Russell brought Ianto back would you watch? If he did it really really badly would you watch? If Jack wasnt in it would you watch? If Torchwood was re-written and was compleatley rubbish, would you watch? cause you seem to like good drama but what if it was bad? would you watch crap to just be a true fan?
[spoiler:tz0d7bzj][/spoiler:tz0d7bzj]